Outlier Dictionary of Chinese Characters

[naphta]

That's wonderful! So it's worth having both versions of the dictionary installed even if I mainly study traditional characters.
However, the explanation you just provided isn't on the dictionary, so I guess this is the kind of questions that would be brought up in a Facebook discussion page. However, I would suggest a forum instead of using Facebook for two reasons. First, some people don't use Facebook, and second, it's harder to search information about previous discussion threads on fb, whereas a forum would have a clear structure and would be more suitable for archiving. For instance, why not creating here at Pleco a specific cross platform outlier "usage and content" subforum?

 

[cloudtrapezer]

I got an email giving me a code for my Outlier dictionary. I followed the instructions. Nothing happened. No new dictionary. No new purchases. Mailed the outlier people and they referred me to Pleco. Thought I'd try again. Now it tells me code already used. Can I please get some help.

Also can I second the previous post. I don't use Facebook so can we continue to use this forum?

 

[John Renfroe]

@cloudtrapezer

Keep in mind that it's nearly 4 AM on the East Coast of the US. I'm sure Pleco will get back to you as soon as they're able to. That's not an issue we can handle on our end, which is why I referred you to Pleco.

We want to set up a dedicated forum, but I'm not sure we can do that right now, for a few reasons. The Facebook thing was just us floating an idea, nothing set in stone—we know some people would prefer not to use it. At any rate, we'll look into our options and try to come up with something that works for as many people as possible.

 

[捞什子]

Useful to know that your analysis is filtered through official ROC and PRC frameworks, at least in part.

I wonder, regarding functional classification for components in simplified characters, if the simplification logic intended by the PRC linguists who created simplified Chinese is relevant to your analysis, or if such considerations can be ignored - that the final character forms are all that is needed to analyze component function?

I know we're really going down the rabbit hole with this question, so thanks in advance!

 

[cloudtrapezer]

@cloudtrapezer

Keep in mind that it's nearly 4 AM on the East Coast of the US. I'm sure Pleco will get back to you as soon as they're able to. That's not an issue we can handle on our end, which is why I referred you to Pleco.

We want to set up a dedicated forum, but I'm not sure we can do that right now, for a few reasons. The Facebook thing was just us floating an idea, nothing set in stone—we know some people would prefer not to use it. At any rate, we'll look into our options and try to come up with something that works for as many people as possible.

Didn't mean to sound impatient

 

[mikelove]

@cloudtrapezer - Replied now, sorry for the wait.

 

[John Renfroe]

@cloudtrapezer

Not at all, that was as much for others who may also be reading as it was for you!

@捞什子

The logic that they employed isn't what is taken into consideration in the Essentials data. Rather, we look at how a character represents sound and meaning, regardless of its history.

The Expert section might go into more detail as to how the simplification for a given character was arrived at. Refer to the Expert entry for 监 for an example.

 

[naphta]

Could you make available a list of the few entries containing an expert section? The one on 監 and its simplified version are both very interesting, it would be nice to read the others.

 

[ACardiganAndAFrown]

@John Renfroe Will the references contain the original quoted (or: referenced) passages in the future?

 

[Daniel C]

Thanks for the character dictionary. I purchased it the moment I saw it in my Pleco Addons. I can see a lot of work went into it. My question pertains to future iterations of the dictionary. Presently the vast majority of the entries simply identify character components as semantic or phonetic. Pleco already broke down character components and in most instances it is quite easy to tell whether a component is semantic or phonetic by looking up the components in the dictionary. What is not always intuitive is the rationale, especially in terms of its original usage. Is there a plan to make the dictionary entries richer in the future? At the moment, I am afraid that besides a few entries, the dictionary is not that useful. The entry on 監 to which you refer does not feature any detail beyond "semantic" or "phonetic". Compare this for instance the Grand Ricci which gives a rich historical overview of the 監 development first in the oracle bone scripts and then in the Xizhou and Dongzhou etc. I understand that this is a work in progress and that you have only had a few years of development (the Grand Ricci was developed over several decades for instance). I just hope that these entries won't remain static. Looking forward to seeing (and purchasing) your future work!

 

[jasonmcdowell]

What does the character/glyph '〇' mean in the context of any of these entries: 尚, 瓦, 然?

'〇' shows up in some of the character meaning sections, but I don't know what it is for.

 

[etm001]

Hi,

Congratulations on releasing the Mini Edition. A question and suggestion:

• In Pleco > Settings there is the "Traditional" option, which when enabled changes the default character set displayed. (On Android, you can quickly switch between simplified/traditional from the left slide-out menu). I doesn't appear that the Outlier dictionary fully integrates with this functionality, given that a simplified and traditional version of the dictionary is installed. In the future will these be merged into a single dictionary that fully integrates with Pleco's "traditional/simplified" setting? (Sorry if this is in the release notes).
• It would great if night mode could be incorporated for all the pop-ups like "semantic component", "reference", etc. Right now it's all a white background with black text.

Thanks!

 

[Ash]

Thanks for the character dictionary. I purchased it the moment I saw it in my Pleco Addons. I can see a lot of work went into it. My question pertains to future iterations of the dictionary. Presently the vast majority of the entries simply identify character components as semantic or phonetic. Pleco already broke down character components and in most instances it is quite easy to tell whether a component is semantic or phonetic by looking up the components in the dictionary. What is not always intuitive is the rationale, especially in terms of its original usage. Is there a plan to make the dictionary entries richer in the future? At the moment, I am afraid that besides a few entries, the dictionary is not that useful. The entry on 監 to which you refer does not feature any detail beyond "semantic" or "phonetic". Compare this for instance the Grand Ricci which gives a rich historical overview of the 監 development first in the oracle bone scripts and then in the Xizhou and Dongzhou etc. I understand that this is a work in progress and that you have only had a few years of development (the Grand Ricci was developed over several decades for instance). I just hope that these entries won't remain static. Looking forward to seeing (and purchasing) your future work!

Actually, if you look toward the bottom of 監, there is a heading EXPERT INFO and under it, a link "Learn More." Click on that link. It not only shows ancient forms and explains their development, but it also goes into depth about why the explanation given in the 說文解字 is not an accurate representation of the character's development. Keep in mind that this version is a "mini" version. Here is a link explaining what is contained in different versions of the dictionary:
https://www.kickstarter.com/project...ictionary-of-chinese-characters/posts/1789151

 

[mikelove]

@etm001 - Re traditional/simplified, this is a bit unusual because it's not just a character set difference but actually significantly different content; we probably will bundle both versions into a single download with some sort of toggle eventually, but it's quite reasonable that people might want to see both simultaneously (for cases like 有 as John mentions), so I don't think we'd want to make it a toggle exclusively.

Night Mode in popups is on our to-do list, yes.

 

[Ash]

Thanks for the character dictionary. ... I am afraid that besides a few entries, the dictionary is not that useful...!

Hey Daniel,
Not trying to beat a dead horse, but I'd like to explain what the utility is:

There are sound and meaning patterns within the system of Chinese characters. If you understand how they work, you can make use of them to more effectively learn and remember characters as well as make predictions about characters you haven't learned. As such, our dictionary breaks characters down into functional components (i.e., not into random parts or strokes, but into parts that are doing something inside that character). The mini version is a DIY version. You are given the breakdown and you can click on the semantic component to see what range of meanings it gives as a component. The breakdowns also tell you which components are empty components (i.e., don't give a sound or meaning).

For instance, the in 春 is a corruption of 屯 combined with 艹. I looked up 春 on a site that explains characters and they say = one (一) + two (二) + eight (八). If you're talking about the appearance of the modern form, that's fine (though not entirely correct), but if you're trying to understand how that character actually works, then that explanation will work against you. Understanding that is empty is enough, but for those that are curious, we explain the expert section that 艹 (vegetation) + 屯 (a seedling; tún is also the sound component) and 日 sun work together to form a picture of Spring.

In summary, learning how characters actually work makes sound and meaning patterns clearer. Learning via false breakdowns does the opposite: it hides those sound and meaning patterns. The better you understand those patterns, the more effective recall you will have.

If you're interested in knowing how our method can help you, check out this blog post:
http://blog.outlier-linguistics.com/learning/benefits-of-learning-chinese-characters-with-outlier/

 

[Daniel C]

Actually, if you look toward the bottom of 監, there is a heading EXPERT INFO and under it, a link "Learn More." Click on that link. It not only shows ancient forms and explains their development, but it also goes into depth about why the explanation given in the 說文解字 is not an accurate representation of the character's development. Keep in mind that this version is a "mini" version. Here is a link explaining what is contained in different versions of the dictionary:
https://www.kickstarter.com/project...ictionary-of-chinese-characters/posts/1789151

Thank you! Somehow I couldn't find this when I looked at the dictionary yesterday. If all the entries aspire to have this level of detail, then of course I think this dictionary will be very much worth while. I was just a bit disappointed that most of the characters I consulted yesterday seemed to give very little detail beyond the identification of component parts. I second the request of Naphta that you provide a list of "expert" entries so that we can make best use of the dictionary and also have a better idea of what to expect in the future.

Keep up the good work!

 

[daal]

For instance, the in 春 is a corruption of 屯 combined with 艹. I looked up 春 on a site that explains characters and they say = one (一) + two (二) + eight (八). If you're talking about the appearance of the modern form, that's fine (though not entirely correct), but if you're trying to understand how that character actually works, then that explanation will work against you. Understanding that is empty is enough, but for those that are curious, we explain the expert section that 艹 (vegetation) + 屯 (a seedling; tún is also the sound component) and 日 sun work together to form a picture of Spring.

In summary, learning how characters actually work makes sound and meaning patterns clearer. Learning via false breakdowns does the opposite: it hides those sound and meaning patterns. The better you understand those patterns, the more effective recall you will have.

The Outlier dictionary indeed gives a nice brief explanation of the origin of 春, but other entries seem less forthcoming with information. For example, I just looked up 看(thinking that that was what you were talking about as I looked bleary-eyed into my phone) and all that I see there is that the top part is called an empty character with no link (except for the link to the explanation of what an empty character is, which is already getting a bit tiresome), and the bottom part links to 目for which there is a further entry. This is not giving me the information I need to help me remember this character. According to Chinese Characters, a Genealogy and Dictionary by Rick Harbauch, the character is composed of a hand shading the eye, which seems logical enough and does help me remember the character. I agree that knowing which part of a character has which function is helpful, but simply knowing that one part doesn't have a function (is an empty character) and not giving any information as to why it is there or where it comes from (is the top part of 看a hand, and if not, what was it originally?) doesn't help me remember it. This basic sort of etymology is what I as a learner am looking for in order to get a handle on a character, and doesn't seem to be something one should need an expert edition for.

 

[Ash]

... I agree that knowing which part of a character has which function is helpful, but simply knowing that one part doesn't have a function (is an empty character) and not giving any information as to why it is there or where it comes from (is the top part of 看a hand, and if not, what was it originally?) doesn't help me remember it. This basic sort of etymology is what I as a learner am looking for in order to get a handle on a character, and doesn't seem to be something one should need an expert edition for.

To answer your question about 看: The top part that looks like a bent 手 is a corruption of 倝gàn or 㫃 yǎn (those two are actually related as well). 㫃 had a guttural initial (i.e., was pronounced in the same part of the mouth as g- and k-) in Old Chinese. The corrupted components were originally a sound component, but later re-interpreted as a hand.

This is the breakdown of what information appears in what version of the dictionary. The version you have right now is the Mini (initial release), which will grow to the Mini (final). Once the Mini final version is done, we'll start on filling out the Essentials and Expert data for the first 2000 characters, starting with the most common. Then, we'll do the same for the next 2000 characters.
As to whether information appears in the expert or the essentials section, that is a hard line to draw. If we put too much, people that aren't interested will say it's distracting (the very reason we have Essentials and Expert versions). If we put too little, some people will say it isn't enough. We are open to suggestions on this. Our current definition is "that stuff that is necessary to know" goes in the Essentials. "That stuff that is interesting, but isn't strictly speaking necessary" goes in the Expert section. The issue is (as you're bringing up) that not everyone agrees on what the definition of "necessary" is.

 

[daal]

To answer your question about 看: The top part that looks like a bent 手 is a corruption of 倝gàn or 㫃 yǎn (those two are actually related as well). 㫃 had a guttural initial (i.e., was pronounced in the same part of the mouth as g- and k-) in Old Chinese. The corrupted components were originally a sound component, but later re-interpreted as a hand.

Our current definition is "that stuff that is necessary to know" goes in the Essentials. "That stuff that is interesting, but isn't strictly speaking necessary" goes in the Expert section. The issue is (as you're bringing up) that not everyone agrees on what the definition of "necessary" is.

I'd say "necessary" is some information about each part of a character. In this case, I would have been happy with: "[image] is a corruption of 倝gàn or 㫃 yǎn and was originally a sound component, but later re-interpreted as a hand (手）." I would also have been fine with: "[image] is a corrupted component that was originally a sound component, but later re-interpreted as a hand (手）." In other words, I want something that will help me anchor the character in my mind. Just telling me that it is an empty component doesn't give me anything to work with.

 

[Ash]

[QUOTE="... Just telling me that it is an empty component doesn't give me anything to work with.[/QUOTE]
Daal, I think I know what the issue is here. The entry you are looking at for 看 is NOT the full essentials data. You don't have to get the Expert version to get the full essentials information, but you're now looking at the mini-version, which has breakdowns for 1500 common characters (soon to be expanded to 2000), Essentials entries for each semantic component (see the entries for 金, 頁, 广 ) that appears in those 1500 characters (roughly 300 of them) and form explanations for characters that can't be broken down (such as 及, 不, 為). Stroke diagrams for the semantic components are missing, but will be added soon. For full entries, see 尚, 變, 造, etc. (to see the Expert data, click on the link at the bottom of each entry).

Once the mini-version is complete, we will start filling in the Essentials data for those 2000 characters. We are doing it this way so that people can make use of our data as it becomes available instead of waiting for the whole thing to be complete. The mini-version is aimed at people that want to get started using our method, but don't want to wait until the full versions are complete. The Essentials version is for people who want to learn Chinese characters, but don't want to be bogged down with extra details. The Expert version is for people who want to know the complete story. We will be doing monthly or quarterly updates until the full information is available for all versions of the dictionary.
So, if you bought the Essentials version, you get the mini version automatically. And, you will be getting the full Essentials entries for the most common 4000 as that data becomes available (updated monthly or quarterly).