iPhone Feature Requests

character

状元
mikelove said:
That would cover a lot of it, but we'd really want a good source for spoken dialogue too - maybe a collection of TV transcripts from somewhere? (though those have their own peculiar linguistic properties I suppose)
Chinese-forums has had links to movie transcripts, not sure about TV (there are vocab lists of less common words in the TV subforum). Would Chinese tweets be close to speech, if one could weed out the neologisms used to compress meaning into fewer characters.

I know there's a tool which helps one create a text file from English subtitle images extracted from a DVD -- if there's not one for Chinese, it might be an interesting programming project. Basically it takes a subtitle image and tries to isolate individual character images (by empty space between them) and prompts the user to enter the character so it knows what character to record when it runs across that character image.

In any event, the perfect is the enemy of the good in a frequency list; IMO the top 1000 is not likely to vary much once the corpus is large enough.
 
Hello!

Just bought Pleco and am loving it. I do have two problems that I'm hoping are easy to fix or can be included in future updates:

1) I'm using "night mode" with a black background and handwriting interface set to transparent (so I can see the search updating), the character strokes default to black which is indistinguishable from the black background. Unless I’m missing something, there is no way to set the stroke color to something else (eg, white). Could that option be added?

2) The ability to move the cursor within the search bar field. Often times I will enter a multiple character word to find that the latter character(s) are extraneous and the dictionary only looks up the first one or two characters. I then have to delete everything just to write the latter characters over again to look those up. English works similarly when I type a whole word just to find that I had a typo early on that requires a complete erasure and retyping. It would be great if I could just click a spot within the bar to delete exactly what I don't want.

Thanks!
 

elipio

秀才
Hi there,

what I'd love to have is the ability to set one of the "tone colours" as the colour of the drawing line in the HWR interface. I've been making my own "flashcards" (taking a snapshot), and I'd love to be able to look at a photo of a sign I've written and immediately remember the right tone.
I know Pleco flashcards are on the way...

Best

Pete
 

mikelove

皇帝
Staff member
character - those movie transcripts could definitely help, thanks! Doesn't seem like this would be a copyright issue, no - even less so since it's a synthesis of word counts from a bunch of different documents and not just from a single copyrighted work. Tweets seem risky, probably best not to get into those - too many common words getting abbreviated / dropped altogether.

ConfuciusTse - the color background issue with Night Mode / transparent has been mentioned before, actually; should be fairly easy to add an option for stroke color, I think. You can already move the cursor in the input field; just tap-hold on it until the magnifier loupe pops up, then drag your finger to put the insertion point in the correct position.

elipio - you mentioned this before, but I'm still not quite sure if I understand the idea; how would you integrate the Pleco HWR interface with photos you've taken? If you're taking screen snapshots with the definition visible and transparent HWR active, neat idea, but then aren't the characters already tone-colored?
 
I learn something new about Pleco everyday (magnifier loupe). Looking forward to the transparent/night mode stroke color option fix.

Thanks Mike!
 

character

状元
Just as something to think about, is there a way to make the dictionary/search navigation easier? Without hitting the manual, I can sort of get around, but it's not very intuitive.

For example, in the search results, click on gui4bao3hao4 (your company/shop), then touch the character bao3, which gives you a popup instead of a dictionary entry. Then press the magnifying glass, which does a search for that character. Getting back to gui4bao3hao4 is done by pressing the clock and then entries and then gui4bao3hao4.

I'm wondering if some sort of back/forward gestures or buttons could be added to move the user backwards and forwards through the screens they were on. Coverflow for Pleco, if you will.
 

mikelove

皇帝
Staff member
A better bet in that case would be to tap on the > button - that's our intended method for burrowing down and then being able to easily go back to where you were before. The screen you get to by tapping on > will both let you scroll through multiple entries for that character and look it up in different dictionaries, so it should let you do pretty much everything you'd be doing from search results.
 

character

状元
mikelove said:
A better bet in that case would be to tap on the > button - that's our intended method for burrowing down and then being able to easily go back to where you were before.
Thanks; those who do not RTFM get to look dumb on PlecoForums. :lol: It looks like it's just what I needed.
 

mikelove

皇帝
Staff member
Well it is a pretty long M to RTF; really need to get off of our duffs and set up a Wiki with quick tips / lists of commonly-missed options / etc, as the very perceptive stephanhodges was telling me we ought to do a year-and-a-half ago...
 

elipio

秀才
Mike, just checked and yes, I had posted my request for a choice of colour for the drawing line twice... amnesia... sorry...
In fact, your reply to my first post makes sense to me. The setting would have to be hidden pretty deep, so not very functional from my perspective. Anyway... thanks for responding...
Peter
 

DotComCTO

秀才
OK. Here's a good feature request...

Can we have an iPad optimized version? That would completely rock in Chinese class...especially a large sized document reader. W00T!

:lol:

Thanks!

--DotComCTO
 
Thank you to have developed such a good application on Ipod. Just need the flashcards (compatible with ZDT would be great) and this will make Pleco becoming my best "mobile Chinese friend" ^^
 

Bagarius

Member
I wanted to congratulate the Pleco team for an excellent app. I've heard Palm users raving about Pleco for years. After using it on my iPod Touch for about a month, I have to say that it's clearly the best Chinese-English dictionary in the iTunes App Store.

I would like to offer some constructive suggestions. Let me preface these by saying that I'm probably not your typical Pleco user -- I speak, read and write Chinese quite fluently. Generally, when I refer to a Chinese dictionary, I use a Chinese-Chinese dictionary.

I write a lot of emails and some documents in Chinese for professional purposes. I can always find SOME way of expressing what I want to say, but I'm often groping for the BEST way of saying it. A good thesaurus would be very useful. Within the dictionaries themselves, more examples of practical usage would also be helpful.

I have no problem paying for digital content, but I'm not willing to pay several tens of dollars for another Chinese dictionary or reference tool. I already have lots of them in hard copy, and there are many others available for free on the internet. About $10 would be my maximum budget, and even that I would have to think about carefully. However, I think that for a genuinely useful tool, say a good thesaurus, demand could be substantial. Lots of $0.99 cent apps have made millions for their developers.

In my subjective opinion, the interface is not bad but could be improved. Some specific nitpicks... (1) The colors used to indicate the tones look garish; I've turned them off. (2) There's no good reason to include both the complex and simplified characters for every entry, because in >95% of cases, if you know one, you can easily infer the other. There should be an option to toggle these on and off. (3) Why not save space and put the pinyin on the same line as the character? (4) Maybe it's because I haven't yet learned to use Pleco well, but I sometimes get "lost" and cannot find my way back to the main list of entries that I started from. There should be a more intuitive way of returning "home." (5) Copy and paste functionality within the dictionary would be great. (6) The full page character input is great but a bit laggy and jagged.

If you have not already done so, you might want to take a look at the Japanese and Japanese-English dictionaries that are included with Dictionary.app on the Mac. These are excellent, and could serve as a useful model for Pleco.

Finally, and I know this is a trivial detail, there is no longer a fish with the scientific name of Hypostomus plecostomus. The common aquarium pleco is now Pterygoplichthys pardalis.

Overall, a great app. Keep up the good work!
 

numble

状元
99¢ apps are apps that have broad general appeal. Unless based on user-contributed open source content, I highly doubt such a specialized niche application could recoup its cost on 99¢ per app.
 

mikelove

皇帝
Staff member
cclaerhout - flashcards are coming very soon (we think), and since they support the same import formats as our Palm/WM software the ZDT Pleco export feature should still work.

Bagarius - thanks for the detailed feedback.

Are there any particularly good Chinese thesauri that you'd recommend, or dictionaries that are better for this sort of practical usage? We haven't found a thesaurus that we like yet but we're always open to new license ideas.

The prices are really determined by the royalties we have to pay - $10 would be completely impossible for our larger dictionaries, we'd lose money on every copy we sold. Even regular-sized books seem to be set to go for $15 or so in Apple's new eBook store, and dictionaries are a lot more expensive. Perhaps the publishing industry will eventually get as aggressive about pricing as the mobile software industry, but they haven't yet. (I don't think there are millions of English-speaking Chinese language learners who even own iPhones - hundreds of thousands, perhaps, but not millions - so even with 100% market penetration we'd be a long way from Flight-Control-esque earnings).

As far as your specific nitpicks, tone coloring as you say can be turned off - we made the colors a bit less garish in our bug-fix updates, and in general I'm inclined to keep them on by default since they seem to delight more people than they turn off. You can hide the character set you're not using via Settings / Dictionary / Entry Display / One Set Only. You can put Pinyin on the same line with characters in the entry list also - Settings / Dictionary / Entry List (Chinese-English) / List Layout and set it to "Head Pron / Defn". Personally I prefer the separate lines we use now, though, since they're a bit easier to scan quickly (save a fraction of a second in moving your eye between characters and Pinyin) and seamlessly accommodate words at least as long as 4 characters without shrinking the font size or wrapping to a second line.

We've added an "Exit" button option to our already-submitted 2.0.7 update, so enabling that puts a big visible X button in every dialog which you can tap to quickly return to the main screen. In the meantime, another thing that works is to open up the tab bar and just tap on "Dict" - that also drops you back to the top level. Limited copy-and-paste is supported as of 2.0.6 via the optional Copy button in the popup reader (Settings / General / Popup Reader / Show copy button) (though this only works with Chinese characters) - we're about halfway through implementing Apple-esque text selection in our own custom text fields, but we've put off finishing that until after flashcards are done.

With fullscreen character input, are you using this with the transparent background option or with the regular gray background? Do you find that it works OK after you first open up the app but slows down after a while? Are you using an iPhone 3G or a 3GS?

Oh, and I know they got rid of the Latin name Pleco, but that's still widely-used among aquarium folks to describe suckermouth catfish (recent NY Times article here even uses it), most of which never had "pleco" in their Latin names to begin with :)
 

Bagarius

Member
Dear Mike,

Thank YOU for the detailed feedback. It's impressive when a developer pays the kind of attention to their customers that you do.

I haven't surveyed Chinese thesauri systematically, but two that I happen to use are《同义词词林》,上海词书出版社, 1983, and 東東同義詞詞典 (http://www.kwuntung.net/synonym/). The latter also has some other useful Chinese language tools (backup to the root level). Online dictionaries that provide some information on synonyms and antonyms include 教育部重編國語詞典修訂本 (http://140.111.34.46/newDict/dict/index.html) and 汉典 (http://www.zdic.net/). I use both these dictionaries a lot.

Now about costs and pricing of online apps, specifically dictionary apps, I know that's a complicated subject. Let me offer some thoughts in the hope of stimulating discussion. These points are off the top of my head, in no particular order, although I'll try to start with more specific points and progress to more general, strategic ones.

1) I'm curious as to what constitutes intellectual property when it comes to a thesaurus. I don't know for sure -- I'm not an IP lawyer -- but my guess would be that lists of synonyms would have a weaker claim to copyright protection than say dictionary definitions, because there's less creativity and value added in the former than in the latter. In Chinese book stores, I see many pocket thesauri put out by small publishing houses, which leads me to think that these are fairly generic products. If this is true, it would imply that one should be able to license a thesaurus more inexpensively than a dictionary. Incidentally, I think thesauri work especially well in digital form, because the concept of synonymy is all about following linkages between words.

2) With reference to your comment that "Even regular-sized books seem to be set to go for $15 or so in Apple's new eBook store, and dictionaries are a lot more expensive," I would hypothesize that different economic forces operate on digital dictionaries relative to say digital novels, in the sense that there is greater substitutability between the former than between the latter. Different Chinese-English dictionaries may have different emphases and strengths, but they all serve the same basic purpose, whereas every novel tells a different story. According to this line of reasoning, the availability of free but good quality dictionaries on line should put greater downward pressure on prices of dictionaries than prices of say novels. If one can use a web browser to look up a word online for free, that puts a limit on the premium one would be willing to pay for the added convenience of having it optimized for one's mobile device. It would be interesting to test this hypothesis by looking at the decline in sales of printed dictionaries relative to printed books as a whole. I suspect the former has fallen more sharply in recent years, as free online dictionaries have become more common.

3) When I started studying Chinese (a long time ago), I used several dictionaries that were written for Chinese speakers learning English (e.g., the Oxford Advanced Learner's English Chinese Dictionary, which I still refer to occasionally). While there is some boundary between tools for English speakers learning Chinese versus Chinese speakers learning English, in my opinion it's not a sharp one. Therefore I would think that the market opportunity that Pleco potentially addresses is the sum of both these demographics, with native Chinese speakers representing a big potential opportunity. So referring back to your post, it does not seem unreasonable to me to think of Pleco's potential market in the millions of users. (See http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/10 ... _year.html)

4) Pleco Software has been around for ten years, but -- as you know much better than I -- the market for digital reference tools on mobile devices has only really taken off in the last two years or so. This explosive growth reflects the growing ubiquity of smart phones, but the iTunes App Store has also had a huge impact. Recognizing this paradigm shift, the basic Pleco app is free. I think that's good for users, and also good for Pleco. Nevertheless, in my view, Pleco's pricing of its specialized dictionaries still reflects the legacy of the pre-App Store era. There's probably a good business case to be made for the transitional pricing strategy that you currently have, much as the Chinese economy has 摸着石头过河 from a planned to a market economy, but I don't see this as sustainable in the long run.

5) Right now, Pleco is in the enviable position of being best in class. The market for Chinese-English reference tools is still wide open, but it won't be for long. The opportunity now is to grab market share, even at the risk of reducing gross margins. This is what Amazon and Apple are doing and will do with the Kindle and iPad respectively. Pleco is not (yet ;-)) a multi-billion dollar corporation like Amazon or Apple, which limits options in some respects, but I would think that one approach might be to move away from the licensing model to a partnership model with Chinese publishers. I'm running out of time, so won't elaborate here on how that could work as a win-win solution for both, but we can continue this discussion later if you're interested.

Thanks for the useful help in response to my "specific nitpicks." While I really appreciate Pleco on iPod/iPhone's rich feature set, I think Pleco would be even greater if the interface could be simplified and made more "Apple-like."

I haven't yet purchased the full-screen handwriting module; my previous comment was based on the demo version. Playing around with this again, I no longer see the lag and incomplete rendering of strokes that I saw earlier. That may reflect a fresh launch of the app or a recent restart of my iPod Touch. What I still see now however is some jaggedness -- minor kinks in my cursive strokes. (Not directly relevant, but have you tried iShodo? It would be very cool if something like that could be incorporated into your full-screen handwriting mode.)

Finally, of course you're right, hobbyists still use the term "pleco"; my point was simply that Hypostomus plecostomus is no longer a valid scientific name. Besides Chinese, my other major passion is keeping catfish in aquariums. Very few plecos, though, mostly African and Asian catfish. Try Googling images of "Bagarius", my user name on this forum. :D
 

mikelove

皇帝
Staff member
Thanks for the detailed reply.

On #1, while the facts inside of a thesaurus are probably not themselves copyrightable (the fact that a given word is a synonym to another word isn't something anyone can own), collecting / arranging a lot of data that's not copyrightable in and of itself can result in a work that is copyrightable; if that weren't true, dictionaries wouldn't be copyrightable either, or at least their definitions wouldn't be. A thesaurus might in fact be more cheaply licenseable than a dictionary, but that's determined more by the market and by what the publishers think they can get away with charging than by the inherent copyright "value" of a thesaurus.

On #2, sales of reference works in general have fallen a lot thanks to reference content being widely available and easy to search online; how many copies of the Encyclopedia Britannica do you see anymore? Again, though, the publishers are still in control here, and as long as their royalty expectations continue to be based on what they can charge for books in print form, reference books are probably going to continue to cost more than regular novels and such. I have started very tactfully bringing up the existence of CC-CEDICT in Pleco's more recent license negotiations, but it doesn't seem to influence matters much.

I have to disagree with your larger economic point, though - novels may not have quite such specific replacements as Chinese-English dictionaries do, but there are a whole lot of public-domain books out there (I still haven't gotten through everything in Classics), and on top of that a lot of other things one can read that cost a lot less per hour of entertainment than books do; shell out a few dollars for a good Wikipedia app with offline viewing capability and you can get all the nonfiction material you'll ever need.

3) I just don't see the viability of Pleco in the Chinese-speaker-learning-English market; there's a massive amount of cheap / free competition in that area (including extremely heavy use of pirated apps, which are effectively free apps as far as competition is concerned), no possibility of charging more than a few dollars per copy, and it's still very difficult for a Western company to negotiate terms with Chinese publishers as favorable as those that a Chinese company can. If we had millions of dollars in VC money and a bunch of dedicated sales / licensing staff in Beijing then we might be able to pull it off, but as is it's just not a market we have any shot at establishing ourselves in.

4) Again, it's up to the publishers - our most expensive dictionaries aren't even our most profitable ones, strangely enough. But on iPhone at least we now have a much more modular pricing system, so if people don't want to shell out for the pricier dictionaries they can stick with the cheaper ones. That's the nice thing about selling exclusively via In-App Purchase; as the licensing situation adjusts, so can we, we're not tied to one big app with one fixed price tag.

5) Two of our current dictionaries are already licensed through partnerships like you describe rather than through per-copy royalties; we'd love to move to that model for more dictionaries, but it's tough to do so because of the risk for a small company like Pleco in committing to big annual royalty payments / minimums; we've been consciously trying to lower our annual payments lately to free up more money for other things, which is why we're now using an open-source font in our WM software instead of a nicer-but-expensively-licensed commercial one.

Striking a larger, whole-catalog partnership with a publisher would be harder because no one publisher really offers everything we need; even the big ones usually have a couple of significant gaps in their product lines.

Where specifically do you find Pleco's interface to be overly complicated? We can certainly make the toolbars more customizable / hide some rarely-used buttons and let people re-enable them, but I don't think the current button density is that far off from other iPhone apps (even Apple-developed ones). The Settings panel is definitely in need of some better organization / cleanup, maybe an "Advanced Mode" or something along those lines, but that's a whole different problem - more an issue of feature creep than of poor design, actually.

I haven't tried iShodo, but looking at it now it looks like a neat idea - John from ChinesePod was already having fun with the sketching possibilities of Pleco's handwriting recognizer (see his beta review here). Would be particularly cool on some sort of new version of our stroke order / writing test, actually. With the handwriting issue, are you on a 3G or a 3GS?

Didn't recognize Bagarius as the name of a catfish - neat. I used to keep them myself but living in NYC I don't really have the space for aquariums anymore - eager to get back into it if that situation changes, though.
 
C

Charles

Guest
The "Exit btn everywhere" option in the latest release is a great feature. However, when you set it to "On", you unfortunately lose the information about the number of results from your search ("1 of 49" or whatever). I guess this is because there isn't always enough space in the information bar at the top of the display to show both the number of results and the exit button. However, there is really only not enough room when the number of results is something like "149228 of 197191". If the number of results is, for example, "1 of 49", there would be plenty of room to show both the number of results and the exit button. It would be nice to be able to have the exit button AND see the number of results. Perhaps when the number after "of" is the number of entries in the entire dictionary AND there isn't enough room for the entire string "nnnnnn of NNNNNN", you could replace the part after "of" it with "ALL". So, if you are looking at the entry "时候" in the ABC Chinese-English dictionary, the information bar at the top would have: the "Back" button on the left, then "122956 of ALL", then the up and down arrows, and finally the exit (or search) button on the right.
 

mikelove

皇帝
Staff member
Thanks for the feedback. However, this idea worries me a bit since it would make it easy to hit the wrong button by accident - X is rather destructive if you're several levels deep, and we don't want people hitting it by accident, which seems very likely if the buttons don't have a nice wide separation. I guess we could try squeezing it in on the left side instead of the right, so the accidental tap would only drop you back one level, but it still feels kind of crowded... might be another thing we could add as an option if we can implement it easily, though.
 
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