How to learn in batches with SRS?

[FrancoisTaipei]

Good job Kevinstadler!

I generally feel the difference between Barely remembered / remembered / perfectly remembered is not that big.
But I didn't spend time to fine-tune it. T
he things are changed is more like max number of cards per day, repeat incorrect cards after test, category selection...

Barely remembered would make my score go from 6000 to 11000
Remembered would make 6000 go to 13000
Perfectly remembered would make 6000 go to 16000
But in the end, it's all more or less x2 for all...

I feel that it would be nice to have a kind of Wizard in the pleco app that would set up the SRS for you depending on your needs. Pleco is amazingly configurable but most people don't want to go and change their settings in fear it will break everything (or they just don't really understand what are the implications of the changes).

 

[pdwalker]

I've written up a little beginner-friendly guide on how to configure a reasonable SRS test profile in Pleco, comments welcome: https://github.com/kevinstadler/pleco-flashcards/

Very nice and clear. Thank you!

 

[kevinstadler]

I generally feel the difference between Barely remembered / remembered / perfectly remembered is not that big.
But I didn't spend time to fine-tune it. T
he things are changed is more like max number of cards per day, repeat incorrect cards after test, category selection...

Barely remembered would make my score go from 6000 to 11000
Remembered would make 6000 go to 13000
Perfectly remembered would make 6000 go to 16000
But in the end, it's all more or less x2 for all...

EDIT: I have since realised that that is indeed approximately Pleco's default behaviour: the relative score increases after barely remembering, remembering and perfectly remembering a card are 95, 100 and 110% respectively, i.e. a near 2-fold increase in all cases. (Your slightly different observed increases of 83, 117 and 167% are probably because of the long-term 'easiness' of the cards you were looking at, which offset the score updates ever so slightly.)

I guess the idea of the roughly 2-fold increase of the score is that, if you remembered a card since its last review (a timespan solely determined by the card's score), that the time until the next review should be roughly twice as long either way. If you want the barely and perfectly remembered options to have a bigger impact on the next scheduled review, you could set the "Correct scale score increase %" to more extreme values, e.g. for Quality 4: 80% and Quality 6: 120%.

I feel that it would be nice to have a kind of Wizard in the pleco app that would set up the SRS for you depending on your needs. Pleco is amazingly configurable but most people don't want to go and change their settings in fear it will break everything (or they just don't really understand what are the implications of the changes).

I agree with the risk of messing up the 'Tweak parameters' menu, as long as the system seems to work for you there's really no reason to start changing any of the values in there. The only two values that I dared to change were the 'incorrect score decrease %' which by default don't actually distinguish between the three different shades of 'incorrect' and simply reset the scores back to the minimum (much like the original Leitner flashcard box system).

I am already at the level where I can write a character and know its pinyin/meaning after seeing it in Pleco once or twice, then repeating after a day, then after three days, seven days, then two weeks. Do you think such a rhythm is practicable with the current SRS, or would you recommend to use Random subject selection and a manually enforced schedule, with Card filters, for that? The tests I usually alternate between are Show Definition or Show Characters in the Self-graded test type.

I understand wanting to have really fine-grained control over the testing regime, but in the end I didn't feel like all the constant manual changing settings/categories around was really worth the hassle, when SRS gives you something very close to it (and is actually more adaptive, like when some of the cards in a set that you started learning at the same time simply won't go into your head, while other ones you can do in your sleep). I actually find myself (ab)using the 'Prompt for recall quality' option in order to get more fine-grained conscious and intentional control over my review schedule: when I sway between two responses (say perfectly remembered vs. remembered) I often look at the time until the next review that would result from my choice, and then pick whichever seems more appropriate to me. If you're on Android make sure you enable 'Show SRS intervals' and select one of the button layouts with a slash in it, maybe it will suit your needs!

 

[Shun]

Thank you! I'm on iOS; I will try SRS again using your system, just without the score-dependent switching of test types.

 

[sourlearn]

I've been neglecting my studies for quite a while That said, on the positive side I lived in China for quite a while too so at least my 口语 and 听力 are much improved Anyway, it's time to start preparing now for the next HSK level (HSK5), meaning that I once again run into the trouble of how to study in batches. Since I haven't used Pleco's flashcard system for a while, I figured I'd use this opportunity to give this some more thought, as I want to streamline and simplify my workflow.

• Although I do still believe that it makes sense, in principle, to distinguish between the various learning directions (listening, speaking, reading, writing), and that a high score in one direction does not necessarily imply a high score in another, in practice having 4 different scorefiles for these directions is time consuming, and as my vocabulary grows that becomes a more important problem. I don't want to just study in one direction however. As @FrancoisTaipei says, everybody is different but I think learning in one direction only is dangerous; for instance, I've met many people who are good at reading but struggle with dialogue because the sound-to-meaning link is not present in their head (they often need to visualize the word before they know what it means).
• Having these different scorefiles has a technical downside too: it makes it hard to set things up so that, for example, words are included in the speaking test only once they have been successfully included in the listening test (although according to https://plecoforums.com/threads/min...ow-score-filter-to-specify-a-score-file.5261/ this limitation is apparently lifted in version 4.0, but the release date for that is still unknown). This problem could be addressed by using categories in a more detailed manner to specify which words should and should not be included (for instance, using the built-in Pleco functionality to split the HSK levels into categories containing 10 words per category, or use a special "Learning Pool" category), but doing again involves more work; doesn't fit the "streamlined" requirement (Incidentally, this was not addressed in my setup as I had described in previously in this thread either.)
• I think that Pleco's "Alternating" subject selection is a reasonable compromise: each time I review vocabulary, it's essentially random which direction Pleco asks me (I interpret the "writing" direction as "speaking", as I do writing separately; see below).
• Simply setting up SRS and adding HSK5 as a new category however is no good, as that would immediately introduce 1300 cards as "due" . This can be addressed using a "Include card if #reviewed > 0" record filter.
• Of course, that then means that "truly new" cards will never come up; so I use a separate profile for "new" cards; this is useful anyway because for new cards I find it useful to study it in passive direction (char + audio) direction first.
• Finally, I share @pdwalker 's concern that for "truly new" cards studying them once only is insufficient; so I use a third profile to practice these.

So, I've set up three profiles: Revise, Practice, and New, all of which use the same, single, scorefile.

Revise

This is the most important one. When I don't have much time, this is the only once I use, and is the one that is essential for SRS to work properly.

• Set "Card selection/System": "Repetition-spaced"
• Leave "Card categories" at "All categories" (since this is used only to revise cards that are due; can set this to specific categories if specific reason to only focus on some of the words that are due, but this would mess up your SRS for the other words .
• Enable "Card Filters/Record Filter", set "Include card if": "# reviewed", "Is": ">", "Than": "0".
• Set "Test settings/Subject selection" to "Alternating", then enable "Test reading", "Test writing", and "Test listening"; since I interpret "Writing" as "Speaking" I then change "Configure Subjects/Writing/Show" to "Definition".
• Enable "Commands/Repeat incorrect cards" (not essential)
• Enable "Test Settings/Auto-play on reveal" (not essential but I like to have the audio repeated whenever possible to reinforce the right pronunciation).

Practice

If I have a bit more time, I use this to practice the words that I haven't yet got right at least 3 times in a row (in particular, this would be words that I saw for the first time today -- which I've only studied in a passive direction -- but also words that I got wrong in the review session).

• Set "Card selection/System" to "Random" and disable "Card selection/Manage new cards"
• "Max number of cards": "All" (can just stop the test when you run out of time or when you've answered too many words wrong and want to practice those first before trying others).
• "Card categories": leave at "All categories"
• Enable "Card Filters/Record filter", set "Include card if": "# reviewed", "Is": ">", "Than": "0" (i.e., consider the same set of cards that we consider for "Revise")
• Enable "Card Filters/History filter", set "Include card if": "not correct in a row", "Is": "3" (but only consider words that we haven't yet answered correctly 3 times in a row).
• Optionally, enable "Card Filters/Time filter", set "Include card if": "last reviewed", "Is": "within", "Amount": "1", "Unit": "Calendar day" (to practice only the words that you revised today; I enable or disable this filter depending on how motivated I am .
• Set "Test settings/Subject selection" to "Alternating", and set up in the same was as for "Revise".
• Enable "Commands/Repeat incorrect words" (more important in this case because it allows you to focus on a smaller set of words by terminating a test session early)
• Enable "Test settings/Auto-play on reveal" (again, not essential).

New

This profile is used when I feel ready to learn new words; I use it only if no words come up in "Revise" or "Practice".

• Set "Card selection/System": "Fixed" (or "Random")
• "Max number of cards: "All" (I then just stop the test when I feel I've learned enough new cards).
• "Card categories": set as appropriate. This is the only profile where this matters.
• Enable "Card Filters/Record filter", set "Include card if": "# reviewed", "Is": "=", "Than": "0" (i.e., "Revise" and "New" are mutually exclusive).
• Set "Show" to "Chars + Pron + Audio" (I first want to have "passive" knowledge of the word).
• Enable "Commands/Repeat incorrect cards" (not essential).

I also disable "Commands/Show statistics" for these profiles, but that's very minor.

Up to HSK4 I didn't practice writing very much; after all, it's perfectly possible to "write" Chinese on a computer/phone if you are able to "read" only. However, I want to improve my handwriting (partly because I am studying Chinese calligraphy also). Writing Chinese however truly is a separate skill so I've set up three analogue profiles "Writing Revise", "Writing Practice" and "Writing New", using a separate "Writing" scorefile, along the same lines above (except setting "Show" to "Pron + Defn + Audio" for all three profiles).

All in all, this still leaves me with 6 profiles, but my daily routine is streamlined and more efficient. Whether or not it will get me to HSK5, well, we'll see

I'm really interested in this thread and your method of study. Any chance you have updated it since this post? And is did, do you mind sharing a screenshot of the settings?

 

[asane]

First I want to thank everyone in this thread, especially pdwalker, for putting together such a great detailed tutorial on setting up the pleco flashcard system. I tried pdwalker's method of separating out each test type and scorefile, but found it just didn't work well for me. The reason is that I would see each word in all 3 test directions (I test listening, reading, and speaking) in a very short time frame, and then a huge gap between. Also any time I wanted to tweak what I was learning, how I was scoring, etc, I had to change 6 different tests! So now I have it down to 3 tests with a single score file. Hopefully this will be helpful for others just starting out with Pleco as their primary vocabulary flashcard system. I am still optimizing exact score numbers, etc, but I think I finally have a good framework.

Single score file for all 3 tests
All tests are multiple-choice. HOWEVER, I don't look at the choices unless it's a question with too many answers (like a bunch of homophones). I made some suggestion for 4.0 that might avoid needing this option.

Learn Test: sequentially study from listening to reading to speaking. Spend ~1 week seeing the same words every day in all 3 directions to learn them. Your settings for scores should be based on how quickly YOU learn things (I am old)

*Configure Score Subjects*
INITIAL Prompt for Definition, Show Audio
STEP 2 If Score >= 200, Prompt for Pron + Defn, Show Characters
STEP 3 If Score >= 300, Prompt for Pronunciation, Show Definition

*Test Settings*
TEST FIELDS Subject Selection Score-based
TEST SETTINGS Number of choices 5, Choices from All cards
AUDIO Unlimited, Auto-play on show and reveal

*Card Filters*
SCORE FILTER enable Range 0 – 400

*Commands*
Repeat incorrect cards ON during test, 2 min and 10 min, shuffle (Depending on how many cards per day you learn, 10 min may be too long)

*Card Selection*
Do NOT manage new cards. Limit new cards by new per day. This controls the influx of ALL NEW CARDS TO LEARN per day.

*Scoring*
Scoring system = manual, only change 1x per day, day type = calendar.

*Configure Scoring*
Increase score by 100 points if correct 2 in a row
Decrease score by 50 points if incorrect 1 in a row
Score limits minimum score 50

SRS TEST: Keep those newly learned words in your head.

BASIC SETTINGS: All cards, all card categories, Multiple-choice, test reading & writing & listening ALL ON.
Configure subjects – see “LEARN” test above

*Test Settings*
Subject selection = alternating, 5 choices from all cards, audio unlimited and auto-play both.

*Card Filters*
Score filter ON 400 – 0
*Commands*
Repeat incorrect cards ON during test, 2 min and 10 min, shuffle (10 min may be too long if you don't have many cards)
*Card Selection*
System = Repetition-spaced, Calendar day, Points per day 100, Sort cards randomly
*Scoring*
Same scorefile as LEARN. Automatic scoring system, Only change 1x/day, calendar.
Tweak Parameters: Still figuring out what the best % decrease for an incorrect answer is and also if I should bother with quality prompt. What do you guys thinks?

REVIEW Test: For a non-0% score decrease, this allows closer attention to words that have already passed the “learning stage” to make sure they’re really re-remembered. This one I’m still tweaking. Basically I want to set it so that it shows cards that have already pass the learning stage that have gotten wrong and not been correct again at least 3 times in a row. I’m not sure if I set this correctly, looking for advice. The great thing about this test is because it's just supplemental, I don't feel the need to go through it every day.

*Score filter*
Enable 400 – 0 (anything less than 400 is going back through at least part of the learning cycle and will be seen frequently)
History Filter Enable, Include card if not correct in a row is >=3
*Scoring*
Same Scorefile as other tests, Scoring system = Stats Only.

 

[Ledu]

First: SRS [Usually 150 cards, 1hr30m, Mandatory Daily, Early Rise helps]

(Optional, time permitting)
Second: Drilling
Third: Take 10 or so and study further by radicals, components using all dictonairies I have. Write this in notebook circling components in red pen.
Fourth: Write unknowns Hanzi+Pinyin usually 1x, if difficult to remember, 3x .

Motivation: Getting more cards known has a dopamine effect. Not exactly like hearing bells and whistles with Duolingo but very close. Wake early to beat the computer, feel good.

Device: Android on phone for portability, no syncing issues

Settings:
#1 SRS (Spaced Rep)
Max#of Cards: All
Card Categories: HSK4 only
Test Type: I only do Self graded, never touch others now
Show: Characters
Test settings: Simple/Allow missing parts ON/ Auto-play on reveal ON
Commands: Repeat incorrect ON, Time at end of test; Loop repeat incorect ON; Shuffle repeat incorrect ON; Show stats ON, Prompt for new score on undo ON
Display: Headword size: 96; Definition size: 22; Force character set ON; Simplified only; Definition: Remap YES; Dicts ALL(11 in my case); Definition sections: def+ex+linkns; Filter head in defs ON; Show switch Dic ON
Card selection: System: Repetition Spaced; Day type Calendar; 12am; Study new cards first ON; Card is learned >=1000;
Scoring: [Both use same scorefile]; Only change once per day ON; Day type Calendar 12am start time

#2 Drilling (Random) Everything same as above or as stock settings except:
Max#of Cards: (All or less if forgetful)
Card filters: Time filter, include card if is within 1 day; Score (0-1000)
Card selection: Random
Score Options: NONE

If not indicated as ON, it is OFF or just as stock defaults. The SRS is what I should know comfortably, the Drilling profile has no effect on the SRS profile as set to NONE. When I begin studying HSK 5, I will set limit new cards to 20 per day in SRS. Thanks for everyone who has suggested their setup in this thread so far. Originally I followed Edso de Vries and then experimented with others. My current setup has worked for me so far and I don't think I need to tweak anything but I am open to suggestions. When I tried a non-srs method I was surprised when I couldn't understand the vocab comfortably latter on. I think SRS solves this by making suggestions to me. The Drilling on Random helps me get more reps in.