Detailed C-E Dictionaries

mikelove

皇帝
Staff member
(cross-posted to Chinese-Forums.com to get as many readers as possible)

We currently offer two Chinese-to-English dictionaries, the Oxford Concise and the ABC Comprehensive. Each of them has many strong points, but one thing they're both lacking in is detail; the ABC has lots of entries, but because it tries to cram 200,000 of them into a single volume it's short on example sentences and tends to use very abbreviated definitions. So you really don't get an in-depth description of what a particular word means.

So one more thing we're looking to add to our product line is a Chinese-English dictionary with longer / more detailed definitions. Ideally this would still have a good number of entries (80,000-100,000 or more) but would average maybe 2-3x as many words per definition as the ABC. The goal isn't really to replace the ABC (though we'd certainly consider raising it to an equal level, say offering a checkbox option in our online store where you can pick which of the two big C-E dictionaries you want with your Professional-bundle purchase) but rather to offer an alternative for people who prefer detail to brevity.

Any suggestions would be welcome, but a couple of titles in particular we're looking at:

* New Age Chinese-English Dictionary, Commercial Press: easily the hardest of these to license (just getting an e-mail response from CP can be an exercise in frustration), but it's big, detailed, and most online reviews of it seem to be extremely positive.

* A Chinese-English Dictionary, Second Edition, Foreign Language Teaching & Research Press: hasn't been updated since 1995, but per FLTRP's website a new version appears to be in development, and it's still of the best-respected C-E dictionaries out there.

* New Century Chinese-English Dictionary, also by FLTRP: definitions seem to be even longer / more detailed than the other two, though I've heard a few complaints about missing words / accuracy. Very big and very recent, though, which are both definite pluses.

Thoughts / reviews on any of these? Any other detailed C-E titles people are fond of?
 

ldolse

状元
chineseetymology.com dictionary

http://www.chineseetymology.org/

This is perhaps detail in a different sort of direction, but I stumbled across this site while I was studying the radicals. I find learning about the origins of each character a huge help in actually remembering the character. It's a nice resource, but I would use it an order of magnitude more frequently if it was included as a dictionary for Pleco.

It would be awesome if this author would be willing to let you convert it. I imagine the ancient character images would be stripped out of the conversion, but it would still be quite useful without that.
 

thph2006

进士
I use the online DictCN http://www.dict.cn/en/. I know it's not what you're looking for but I love the way you can input a character, word or phrase and it spits out a whole range of example sentences. There have been many times I really haven't understood the use of a particular character or construct but seeing the multitude of example sentences has really cleared up any confusion. I fully support your effort to find this capability!
 

Dan_78cj5

举人
OK, I know you asked this question in 2003 so you have probably moved on to other projects, especially since the C-C dictionary should probably fill the need for longer explanations of words, but here my input anyway:

My school used a version of the second one you mentioned:

* A Chinese-English Dictionary, Second Edition, Foreign Language Teaching & Research Press: hasn't been updated since 1995, but per FLTRP's website a new version appears to be in development, and it's still of the best-respected C-E dictionaries out there.

We actually used a "Revised Edition" with a 1997 publishing date. I have seen this used a lot in other locations too. I never felt it was lacking for my needs, but to be honest I haven't cracked it open in years thanks to Pleco. I just quickly flipped through the pages and feel it is hit and miss for what you are looking for. Many entries have deeper explanations and example sentances, but many do not. I'm not sure how it would compare up to an ABC dictionary without looking at the two side-by-side on the same format (i.e. two paper copies or two Pleco copies) to really compare.

I am however growing dissatisfied with the way many C-E / E-C dictionaries give very curt 'translations' of words rather than explanations and examples or even definitions. Again, I am looking forward to the purely Chinese dictionary to fill this gap, but I like the idea of a dictionary on Pleco that offers longer explanations and example sentances.

And finally, as far as Pleco goes, I think in general I like having every dictionary you offer loaded up. Granted I almost never access the Oxford as ABC almost always has the entry, more compounds that are similar and at least as good if not better a definition. I do frequently get something out of flipping through the definition in all the dictionaries to find a definition that may better fit my need or fill out my understanding.

SO... that means for me at least, as long as I have memory to support it, I would gladly have additional licensed dictionaries as options I can pick up a la cart and add in. Certainly dictionaries that add new value like a medical, scientific, military, etc., topical dictionary would be better to add than another very similar basic learners C-E or E-C, but any you license I will buy. Partly because I have come to trust your judgement, partly because I haven't seen a disadvantage to having more dictionaries on my Pleco.
 
I still think that the English to Chinese dictionaries are lacking, and not only for a lack of many words (especially related to commonly used computer terminology) but also because it is often not clear which specific use of the word is being translated. Though there are example sentences to give the specific usage of words for many headings, many other do not have usage notes, leaving one to constantly super-jumping to the Chinese dictionaries to find out what the real meaning of the translation is.

For intermediate Chinese speakers this can be bothersome sometimes, but I remember as a beginner it used to really frustrate me. I think a lot of Pleco's newer customers are going to come from the beginner subpool, so it seems to only make sense to have better English to Chinese dictionaries for the beginners to look up the words they want to use.

That's my two cents...
 

sckarren

Member
It is not overly detailed, but I like the dictionary published by zhongwen.com. It has an interesting way of linking character genealogy. 中文字谱,汉英资源字典。
 

sfrrr

状元
I have been wishing for more thorough definitions (C to E) for a long while. In fact, lately it has seemed to me that some of ABC's definitions have been weirdly tangential to the word's general meaning. So, I'd love something like an expanded Tuttle, which, if it has the word, usually has a few cogent usage examples too.

And, I too will buy any dictionary you offer, as long as it has something to do with the Chinese language.

As far as Zhongwen Zipu, I used it for years in its paperback form and then online, but, lately, have used it only to find out what the various parts of a character are from. Richard Sears' Chinese etymology site is a fabulous resource because it shows most or all the historical forms for a given word, but the job turned out to be much too large for one man to finish. (I once promised to help and then and then didn't keep my word, something I'm still ashamed of.) So, if you, Mike, and Richard wanted to work together on a Pleco etymological dictionary, someone would have to finish what Richard couldn't. I'd guess the online dictionary is about 2/3 or 3/4 done.

I'd prefer the dictionary you offer be as current as possible.
 

mikelove

皇帝
Staff member
How do you find A Chinese-English Dictionary for detailed definitions? There is a more expanded Tuttle C-E now, though it's still pretty small compared to ABC.

Zhongwen Zipu doesn't seem to be licensable - we wrote him and he wasn't interested - but we'd love to license another etymology title if we can find one; with all of the other stuff we're working on it would be tough to contribute much to Richard Sears' project though. It may turn out to be easier to just provide easy access to meanings of character components (fill in definitions for those that are missing them, i.e.) in the currently-iPhone-exclusive character breakdown feature.
 
How do you find A Chinese-English Dictionary for detailed definitions? There is a more expanded Tuttle C-E now, though it's still pretty small compared to ABC.

It would be useful for me if it adds more detailed definitions as many Chinese-English dictionaries often do. As for an expanded Tuttle C-E, I would buy it in an instant.
 

Azabu

举人
Actually I quite like "A Chinese-English Dictionary, A Basic Dictionary for Chinese Language Learning" by Foreign Languages Press, which has all the HSK vocabulary and a lot of good, detailed examples.
 

jleeyap

Member
I have been mainly reading headlines from the webpages of the major chinese newspapers with commentary on stuff going on inside China.

Is there a dictionary that is very current with web lingo and current media vernacular. I've encountered terms for twitter, fans, web, etc that are just transliterations from the english term that stymied me for a while until I sounded them out. I think the word for fans is the same is fensi, same as "cellophane noodles" ! Thanks.
 

mikelove

皇帝
Staff member
Azabu said:
Actually I quite like "A Chinese-English Dictionary, A Basic Dictionary for Chinese Language Learning" by Foreign Languages Press, which has all the HSK vocabulary and a lot of good, detailed examples.
That's actually the very dictionary we offer as "PLC" on iPhone and under its own name on Palm/WM, or at least I think it is.

jleeyap said:
Is there a dictionary that is very current with web lingo and current media vernacular. I've encountered terms for twitter, fans, web, etc that are just transliterations from the english term that stymied me for a while until I sounded them out. I think the word for fans is the same is fensi, same as "cellophane noodles" ! Thanks.
The free CC-CEDICT add-on dictionary is probably your best bet on that; by its very nature it gets updated a lot more frequently than any printed dictionary. It includes "fan (loanword)" in its definition for 粉丝 anyway.
 

feng

榜眼
OK, I'm a few years too late :D

* New Age Chinese-English Dictionary, Commercial Press: easily the hardest of these to license (just getting an e-mail response from CP can be an exercise in frustration), but it's big, detailed, and most online reviews of it seem to be extremely positive.
Mike, I have spent hundreds of hours in bookstores in Taiwan and China comparing many scores of different dictionaries (monolingual and translating) over the course of about a decade, which just means I need a hobby. For what it is worth, IMHO, though I have not been in China for close to two years now, New Age is still in a league of its own. The quality of the definitions, the number and quality of the example sentences -- they really tried hard. I don't know why you have trouble communicating with the publisher. As I have mentioned to you before, I sent them a snail mail letter asking about two different dictionaries that I could not locate near me back in 2005 (I was in China) and I got a detailed two page typed response, not a form letter or advertising copy or something.

* A Chinese-English Dictionary, Second Edition, Foreign Language Teaching & Research Press: hasn't been updated since 1995, but per FLTRP's website a new version appears to be in development, and it's still of the best-respected C-E dictionaries out there.
Of course, the third edition came out in 2010. It's very good. It is a minor improvement over the second edition.

The third book you mention is not worthy of a comment :D

I wish you would get 漢語大詞典 and 漢語大字典。I'm not joking.
 

feng

榜眼
Re: chineseetymology.com dictionary

ldolse said:
http://www.chineseetymology.org/

This is perhaps detail in a different sort of direction, but I stumbled across this site while I was studying the radicals. I find learning about the origins of each character a huge help in actually remembering the character. It's a nice resource, but I would use it an order of magnitude more frequently if it was included as a dictionary for Pleco.

It would be awesome if this author would be willing to let you convert it. I imagine the ancient character images would be stripped out of the conversion, but it would still be quite useful without that.

That guy has his own iPhone app now, and Android too.
 

feng

榜眼
jleeyap said:
I have been mainly reading headlines from the webpages of the major chinese newspapers with commentary on stuff going on inside China.

Is there a dictionary that is very current with web lingo and current media vernacular. I've encountered terms for twitter, fans, web, etc that are just transliterations from the english term that stymied me for a while until I sounded them out. I think the word for fans is the same is fensi, same as "cellophane noodles" ! Thanks.

Dictionaries don't have that stuff and most Chinese people don't know most of the hip new words -- only the diehard web junkies do. You go to Google and type or paste in the word followed by 什麼意思。That will get you some web pages where a Chinese person has also asked about that word on some forum and then someone hopefully answered. Whether the answer is right or not, whether the word or English letters stand for 17 different things, those are different matters :mrgreen:
 

mikelove

皇帝
Staff member
feng said:
Mike, I have spent hundreds of hours in bookstores in Taiwan and China comparing many scores of different dictionaries (monolingual and translating) over the course of about a decade, which just means I need a hobby. For what it is worth, IMHO, though I have not been in China for close to two years now, New Age is still in a league of its own. The quality of the definitions, the number and quality of the example sentences -- they really tried hard. I don't know why you have trouble communicating with the publisher. As I have mentioned to you before, I sent them a snail mail letter asking about two different dictionaries that I could not locate near me back in 2005 (I was in China) and I got a detailed two page typed response, not a form letter or advertising copy or something.

Still un-gettable, I'm afraid - Commercial Press just doesn't seem to be into the idea of licensing stuff.

feng said:
* A Chinese-English Dictionary, Second Edition, Foreign Language Teaching & Research Press: hasn't been updated since 1995, but per FLTRP's website a new version appears to be in development, and it's still of the best-respected C-E dictionaries out there.

Of course, the third edition came out in 2010. It's very good. It is a minor improvement over the second edition.

We signed a perpetual / unlimited license for the second edition and it formed the basis of the PLC dictionary we now ship built into our iOS and Android apps. We've added Pinyin to example sentences, added a couple thousand new entries (and have a backlog of several thousand more) and began working to remove / rewrite potentially-offensive (or just outdated) example sentences; we have someone in China right now going through it sentence-by-sentence and fixing all of the bad ones. We may also add part-of-speech tagging at some point.

feng said:
The third book you mention is not worthy of a comment

Ironically, Oxford seems to have liked it enough to use it as the basis for the Chinese half of their (generally-pretty-well-reviewed) new comprehensive dictionary.

feng said:
I wish you would get 漢語大詞典 and 漢語大字典。I'm not joking.

You might get your wish on the former - we've actually established a good relationship with that publisher now.

feng said:
That guy has his own iPhone app now, and Android too.

And we're working on obtaining similar data from a different source. (as it's not particularly unique to his website)

feng said:
Dictionaries don't have that stuff and most Chinese people don't know most of the hip new words -- only the diehard web junkies do. You go to Google and type or paste in the word followed by 什麼意思。That will get you some web pages where a Chinese person has also asked about that word on some forum and then someone hopefully answered. Whether the answer is right or not, whether the word or English letters stand for 17 different things, those are different matters

CC-CEDICT makes a valiant effort, and we also get some good data ourselves from the "report missing word" feature, but yeah, it's almost impossible to keep up on all that stuff, and you generally don't have to.
 

feng

榜眼
mikelove said:
began working to remove / rewrite potentially-offensive (or just outdated) example sentences; we have someone in China right now going through it sentence-by-sentence and fixing all of the bad ones.
Could they save them in a separate list for reader entertainment?

mikelove said:
Ironically, Oxford seems to have liked it enough to use it as the basis for the Chinese half of their (generally-pretty-well-reviewed) new comprehensive dictionary.
Judging by the reviews I read of Oxford on Amazon a couple years ago, which is to say judging by the reviewers, good reviews aren't necessarily that important. The folks I saw reviewing it (and their replies to my comments) have no idea what else is out there. They think it is the biggest; not. The best; but they don't know about New Age or even Wei Dongya's, etc.. So, good luck to them :D

And we're working on obtaining similar data from a different source. (as it's not particularly unique to his website)
I'm surprised no one sued him for his cut and paste job. I guess they would have to figure out which book he scanned each character in from :mrgreen:
Since you mention this, does that mean you might someday have calligraphy dictionaries? That would be the killer app for me.

CC-CEDICT is this http://www.mdbg.net/chindict/chindict.php ?
They don't even have 神馬都是浮雲。Or am I in the wrong place?
 

mikelove

皇帝
Staff member
feng said:
Could they save them in a separate list for reader entertainment?

Sure :)

feng said:
Judging by the reviews I read of Oxford on Amazon a couple years ago, which is to say judging by the reviewers, good reviews aren't necessarily that important. The folks I saw reviewing it (and their replies to my comments) have no idea what else is out there. They think it is the biggest; not. The best; but they don't know about New Age or even Wei Dongya's, etc.. So, good luck to them

I'll reserve any defense of / additional criticism of their dictionary until we find out whether or not we're going to be able to license it from them :)

feng said:
I'm surprised no one sued him for his cut and paste job. I guess they would have to figure out which book he scanned each character in from

Sorry, wasn't trying to accuse him of anything, merely saying that there are other references to ancient character forms besides his website and we're in the process of licensing one of them.

feng said:
Since you mention this, does that mean you might someday have calligraphy dictionaries? That would be the killer app for me.

Not quite sure what you mean - dictionaries of different character forms or of character-writing techniques?

feng said:
CC-CEDICT is this http://www.mdbg.net/chindict/chindict.php ?
They don't even have 神馬都是浮雲。Or am I in the wrong place?

That's it - it's a bit mainland-oriented and that appears to be more of a Taiwan expression, but whatever dictionary app you're using now is using CC-CEDICT (possibly in conjunction with another dictionary, but that's one of them anyway).
 

feng

榜眼
Calligraphy dictionaries: 書法字典。Dictionaries for the calligraphic forms of characters. They are sort of like the Chinese Etymology website (I know you weren't accusing him of anything), but they deal with the five main styles of calligraphy:
篆書(they tend to focus on 小篆,but they usually have plenty of the earlier styles as well, going back to oracle bones)
隸書
草書
楷書
行書
They vary from pocket-sized to tombstones, from single styles to all styles in one small or large volume, and there are at least four different sets where one or two volumes are devoted to each of the five styles. There are dictionaries devoted to one famed calligrapher, or even one famed calligrapher's characters in one style. There are also some for mixed styles (e.g. 行草) and less common styles (e.g. 章草). And then there are small and large dictionaries for 篆刻 characters. Oh, and pen calligraphy. I have not included in this list the collections of oracle bone or bronze writing or warring states writing or Mawangdui writing, etc., since those are used by more than calligraphers, but they would be welcome too and I noticed on another thread you are thinking about some of that.


神馬都是浮雲 as far as I know is a PRC expression. It was all the rage in 2011, supposedly starting from something written on tianya.cn in the latter part of 2010. My web surfing, in spite of my fetish for the Taiwan version of traditional character forms, is nearly all on the mainland, unless I am searching for a particular thing that brings me to the Taiwan web. Other common Internetisms from the PRC web that I can't find in that dictionary are:
女/男孩紙
尼瑪 (well, they list it as a county in Tibet)
桑/搡不起
煞筆 (they have it's legitimate usage, but not it's use for 傻逼/B/__, all three of which they do have)
跑堂/跑堂者 (they have the archaic meaning, but neither the verbal nor nominal forms of the web meaning, and this has been around at least a few years)
臥槽/我操

They do have 有木有。
 

scykei

榜眼
I would really appreciate a more detailed dictionary. It turns out that I rarely ever need ABC because Pleco's dictionary usually covers most of it with better definitions. Anything that ABC C-E lacks will be covered by ADSO for one word definitions. And surprisingly, most of the time, the definitions for ABC is exactly the same, word-to-word with Pleco's dictionary, just without the example sentences. It might be because there are no better way to define the word but it really isn't helpful at all this way.

ABC is only good for it's 成語 but I think that use will be pretty redundant when a dictionary for that specific field of definitions. And even the ABC E-C is basically of no use next to 21st Century dictionary, unless I need to find a word quickly without going through its gigantic wall of unformatted text.

If you were to find one more detailed dictionary, I think it can outright replace ABC. :p
 
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