2.3 / User Interface Enhancements

gary

Member
mikelove said:
gary said:
This is the thing I'd like the most, like the Palm version. Holding the tap works well to select and then choose lookup from the popup. But a simple tap to go to definition would be so useful and time saving. I find linking in other dictionary apps pretty accurate and I never tap on the wrong word. The back button helps in errors.

I guess I'm still having a hard time seeing the importance of inline English-Chinese definitions - are you encountering words in Chinese-English definitions that you'd like to find separate Chinese translations for, are you using the document reader to look at English documents that you're translating into Chinese...

It's not really an inline definition. If I'm viewing a chinese character, see some english word somewhere in the body, I say, hey I don't know the chinese character for that. So click on the english word and see how it's translated to chinese. Most single dictionaries link all words in their definition for this. :) Linking to its full definition so I can just browse around and just read the dictionary. :) I think the palm version was like that. And Wenlin.

I think it would also be nice if I clicked a chinese character to view its def, it would go to it instead of doing a search. a top hold to get the popup for search would be ok when I do want that. Just hoping for the fastest way with the least amount of clicks to nagivate around.

swiping gestures could be nice too. Like left to go back or the up button, right acts like the down button.

maybe a preference to just go to next screen whenever without that swipe animation? Or just no preference and have it that way. much much faster. :)

Gary
 

mikelove

皇帝
Staff member
gary said:
It's not really an inline definition. If I'm viewing a chinese character, see some english word somewhere in the body, I say, hey I don't know the chinese character for that. So click on the english word and see how it's translated to chinese. Most single dictionaries link all words in their definition for this. Linking to its full definition so I can just browse around and just read the dictionary. I think the palm version was like that. And Wenlin.

At some point we're going to get around to merging the Apple-style and Pleco-style text selection systems and this might make sense then, but it's among a dozen or so features that people keep asking about that I really don't like; partly it's ergonomics - Chinese characters are harder to hit accurately than English words and I'm very concerned about mis-taps - and partly it's business; anything we do that greatly increases our product's appeal to the Chinese market, as easier support for looking up English words certainly would, also invites rampant piracy, and while we aren't really losing money from people who wouldn't have paid for our software anyway, having our software pirated by those people also makes pirated copies much easier to come by for people who might have otherwise paid for it; piracy was a big part of the reason why 2009 was such a rough year for us and it's something I take extremely seriously now.

But thankfully, since the vast majority of iPhones aren't jailbroken and can only run Apple-approved software, the potential damage is limited to a relatively small portion of our customer base, so it's probably about time I stopped stressing about this and accepted that it's something people want... most of these Features Michael Hates make it into Pleco eventually, we're actually adding two of them in the 2.2.2 update, there's just a lot more hand-wringing involved :)

gary said:
I think it would also be nice if I clicked a chinese character to view its def, it would go to it instead of doing a search. a top hold to get the popup for search would be ok when I do want that. Just hoping for the fastest way with the least amount of clicks to nagivate around.

Not quite sure if I understand this one - where are you tapping on that character? Normally when you tap on a character you should get that definition popup - is there another screen you'd like to go to instead?

gary said:
swiping gestures could be nice too. Like left to go back or the up button, right acts like the down button.

maybe a preference to just go to next screen whenever without that swipe animation? Or just no preference and have it that way. much much faster.

Swipes are tough because they have a habit of interfering with other gestures - this was actually a big problem for us on Windows Mobile, HTC had the brilliant idea of letting people switch between tabs using a swipe gesture and it screwed up our handwriting recognizer box pretty badly until we figured out a way to disable it. Gestures that are confined to a particular portion of the screen, like tap-holds, are generally a much safer bet...
 
gary said:
mikelove said:
gary said:
This is the thing I'd like the most, like the Palm version. Holding the tap works well to select and then choose lookup from the popup. But a simple tap to go to definition would be so useful and time saving. I find linking in other dictionary apps pretty accurate and I never tap on the wrong word. The back button helps in errors.

I guess I'm still having a hard time seeing the importance of inline English-Chinese definitions - are you encountering words in Chinese-English definitions that you'd like to find separate Chinese translations for, are you using the document reader to look at English documents that you're translating into Chinese...

It's not really an inline definition. If I'm viewing a chinese character, see some english word somewhere in the body, I say, hey I don't know the chinese character for that. So click on the english word and see how it's translated to chinese. Most single dictionaries link all words in their definition for this. :) Linking to its full definition so I can just browse around and just read the dictionary. :) I think the palm version was like that. And Wenlin.

+1. That'd be nice to have in Pleco. 8)
 

gary

Member
mikelove said:
gary said:
It's not really an inline definition. If I'm viewing a chinese character, see some english word somewhere in the body, I say, hey I don't know the chinese character for that. So click on the english word and see how it's translated to chinese. Most single dictionaries link all words in their definition for this. Linking to its full definition so I can just browse around and just read the dictionary. I think the palm version was like that. And Wenlin.

At some point we're going to get around to merging the Apple-style and Pleco-style text selection systems and this might make sense then, but it's among a dozen or so features that people keep asking about that I really don't like; partly it's ergonomics - Chinese characters are harder to hit accurately than English words and I'm very concerned about mis-taps ...

iBooks: tap and hold to select a word (character in this case), as you move your thumb around, a loupe appears showing what's selected, and the selection changes as you move around, and then release when something is selected. In this case, selection mode appears letting you choose that one character or more, a menu appears: copy, lookup, ... Mis-taps should be ok. There's always the back button.

mikelove said:
gary said:
I think it would also be nice if I clicked a chinese character to view its def, it would go to it instead of doing a search. a top hold to get the popup for search would be ok when I do want that. Just hoping for the fastest way with the least amount of clicks to nagivate around.

Not quite sure if I understand this one - where are you tapping on that character? Normally when you tap on a character you should get that definition popup - is there another screen you'd like to go to instead?

yes, instead of a definition popup, go to the definition itself, like you were lookup up that character. Prehaps a preference popup or not.

mikelove said:
gary said:
swiping gestures could be nice too. Like left to go back or the up button, right acts like the down button.

maybe a preference to just go to next screen whenever without that swipe animation? Or just no preference and have it that way. much much faster.

Swipes are tough because they have a habit of interfering with other gestures - this was actually a big problem for us on Windows Mobile, HTC had the brilliant idea of letting people switch between tabs using a swipe gesture and it screwed up our handwriting recognizer box pretty badly until we figured out a way to disable it. Gestures that are confined to a particular portion of the screen, like tap-holds, are generally a much safer bet...

Backward/forward swipes could be active only when viewing a definition or at the search screen. If one choose to handwrite something to recognize, the mode would be different without swipes. Seems ok? :) Another app, Notebooks (Alfons Schmid) lets you swipe between notes. very nice though its swipe sensitivity is greater than SpringBoard for app pages, a bit too much I think. If you were also concerned about mis-swipes, does that ever happen with SpringBoard, seems not. :)

Overall, it seems usability could be greatly increased. Much like Mac OS, many features are hidden and don't get in the way, but if you know them. Like Cmd-W to close a window, cmd-option to close all windows, or option-click your desktop to hide the current app. doesn't interfere if you don't know it's there. With iOS, other features are much less developed; they're still figuring all of it out. Like some new things they're thinking about.

Sorry to say, Pleco seems to be a bit complicated. :) At least the preferences. I feel many could be removed to make the app simpler for those new to it, or that don't want to figure things out. Those good at IT forget about complications. Word or Excel, few know all the features and its design, so much included that many basic things take too many steps. So Apple makes apps like Pages and Numbers, careful to introduce new features without making what's there more difficult to use. Back to preferences. things like toolbar color. really? :) If iOS or Mac OS Preferences included such things; it'd be as bad as Windows. I suppose letting one choose a color is simpler than the hard work of trying things out and seeing what is a good toolbar color. Mac OS took so many years to go to gray, a neutral color that interferes less with content. But iOS, not bad so far Safari with a blue toolbar, fairly neutral though I think a bit shiny as it is now, also looks ok in inverse mode (double tap home button). Or if many preferences will stay there for now, a search for preferences. like Mac OS X system preferences (or how you can search an app menu thru help). Mac OS hasn't added that yet to app preferences but they will someday.
 

gato

状元
I agree that Pleco should strongly consider dropping some of the preferences and err on the side having fewer user-configurable options rather than more. It's nice to have options, but when there are so many options, it become hard for users to learn about them and find the ones they are actually interested in. This would be a problem even if there is an expert menu to hide some of the less used options. If you have too options in the expert menu, for all effective purposes, those options will be hidden from or impossible to learn for the average user. User configurable color, for example, is very important for the reader, which the user might spend a lot of time staring at, but configurable color is probably less needed for the dictionary itself. There are also many other more technical options that very few users will want to change.
 

gary

Member
gato said:
As I said earlier, I agree that Pleco should strongly consider dropping some of the preferences and err on the side having fewer user-configurable options rather than more. It's nice to have options, but when there are so many options, it become hard for users to learn about them and find the ones they are actually interested in. User configurable color, for example, is very important for the reader, which the user might spend a lot of time staring at, but configurable color is probably less needed for the dictionary itself. There are also many other more technical options that very few users will want to change.

yes yes yes. :) Reader color is good. Toolbar? With such long scrolling pref screens, maybe the problem is not enough UI elements. iOS is still figuring them out. Invent some of your own. :) Or toolbar color, and maybe other things could be hidden, and active when let's say one is in preferences and swipes the toolbar.

If btw Mike, you could use another beta tester. :)
 

mikelove

皇帝
Staff member
gary said:
iBooks: tap and hold to select a word (character in this case), as you move your thumb around, a loupe appears showing what's selected, and the selection changes as you move around, and then release when something is selected. In this case, selection mode appears letting you choose that one character or more, a menu appears: copy, lookup, ... Mis-taps should be ok. There's always the back button.

It's a lot harder to aim at a single character accurately, though - that's why we've stuck with our tap-lookup + arrow system, makes it considerably easier to zero in on a specific character than with Apple's loupe thing. The most likely thing at this point is that we'll let you tap-hold to get the selection loupe if you prefer, but once you let go you'll get the full Pleco popup reader interface with the addition of draggable handles and a copy button wedged in there somewhere - tough to find a way to accommodate all of that without it getting a bit overwhelming, though.

gary said:
yes, instead of a definition popup, go to the definition itself, like you were lookup up that character. Prehaps a preference popup or not.

You can use Apple-style text selection to highlight a word, then tap on the "Search" button in the menu popup to search for it in the main dictionary. Or you can tap on a character to bring up the popup reader, then tap on the > button to bring up the full-screen definition. But I'm a little wary of going directly to the definition because if it turns out that you tapped on the wrong character it's going to be very annoying to have to go back.

gary said:
Backward/forward swipes could be active only when viewing a definition or at the search screen. If one choose to handwrite something to recognize, the mode would be different without swipes. Seems ok? Another app, Notebooks (Alfons Schmid) lets you swipe between notes. very nice though its swipe sensitivity is greater than SpringBoard for app pages, a bit too much I think. If you were also concerned about mis-swipes, does that ever happen with SpringBoard, seems not.

Springboard doesn't have to also accommodate people scrolling down, though. I'm also a little worried because of the iPhone's less-than-stellar Chinese text rendering speed - to get a swipe like that to look nice and smooth, you have to have the next / previous entries rendered and ready to go more-or-less as soon as the user starts swiping (so that the user can see the new screen sliding in as they drag). I'm also not wild about mixing up the left/right and up/down interface metaphors on iPhone - left/right in most iPhone apps including ours is very clearly an "increasing level of detail" move, going left / right to move through a list of search results which are on the same "level" seems like it might be rather confusing.

gary said:
Overall, it seems usability could be greatly increased. Much like Mac OS, many features are hidden and don't get in the way, but if you know them. Like Cmd-W to close a window, cmd-option to close all windows, or option-click your desktop to hide the current app. doesn't interfere if you don't know it's there. With iOS, other features are much less developed; they're still figuring all of it out. Like some new things they're thinking about.

That's part of the reason why we have so many settings, actually - we've got a limited number of places to put stuff and there's a lot of functionality that we have to give people some way to access.

gary said:
Sorry to say, Pleco seems to be a bit complicated. At least the preferences. I feel many could be removed to make the app simpler for those new to it, or that don't want to figure things out. Those good at IT forget about complications. Word or Excel, few know all the features and its design, so much included that many basic things take too many steps. So Apple makes apps like Pages and Numbers, careful to introduce new features without making what's there more difficult to use. Back to preferences. things like toolbar color. really? If iOS or Mac OS Preferences included such things; it'd be as bad as Windows. I suppose letting one choose a color is simpler than the hard work of trying things out and seeing what is a good toolbar color. Mac OS took so many years to go to gray, a neutral color that interferes less with content. But iOS, not bad so far Safari with a blue toolbar, fairly neutral though I think a bit shiny as it is now, also looks ok in inverse mode (double tap home button). Or if many preferences will stay there for now, a search for preferences. like Mac OS X system preferences (or how you can search an app menu thru help). Mac OS hasn't added that yet to app preferences but they will someday.

Indeed it is, which is why we've actually hired an outside UI design firm to help us for the next big update. As far as preferences specifically, the next major update should organize them a lot more neatly and bury a lot of the less useful ones in an "Advanced" screen - searching is a good idea too, though, we'll see if we can add something like that.

But I don't think making these things customizable is a bad idea in general; 99% of the work in making toolbar colors customizable was required simply to be able to offer a "night mode," which has actually proven quite popular (people often do intensive Chinese study in dark places - on an overnight bus / train, say), so once we'd done that, and once we had a color picker anyway (needed for tone coloring, which we definitely needed to make customizable given the many dueling schemes out there), we figured we might as well go all the way with it and let people pick arbitrary colors. Which quite a lot of people do (though perhaps fewer would if we'd chosen a less glaring shade of blue for the default).

gato said:
I agree that Pleco should strongly consider dropping some of the preferences and err on the side having fewer user-configurable options rather than more. It's nice to have options, but when there are so many options, it become hard for users to learn about them and find the ones they are actually interested in. This would be a problem even if there is an expert menu to hide some of the less used options. If you have too options in the expert menu, for all effective purposes, those options will be hidden from or impossible to learn for the average user. User configurable color, for example, is very important for the reader, which the user might spend a lot of time staring at, but configurable color is probably less needed for the dictionary itself. There are also many other more technical options that very few users will want to change.

It actually is important for the dictionary too - I myself have carried on quite a few Pleco-assisted conversations with Chinese strangers on overnight trains where a glaring white screen could be somewhat annoying. And it's only going to get more important if Apple switches to OLED screens (which use up significantly less power for black pixels than white ones) in a year or two. We actually could use more customizability in some areas - there's a lot of interest in user-reconfigurable toolbars, e.g., which are very likely to show up in 2.3.

I agree that the number of options can seem overwhelming, but I'm not sure which ones we'd take away - there are a few that are kind of cumbersome, the "entry commands" stuff ought to be integrated into a simpler custom toolbar / command menu system for example, and a few that may not be as important on iOS as they were on Palm/WM - customizable wildcard characters, for example, which aren't really necessary on an OS where everybody's stuck with the same set of IMEs - but even if we really cut aggressively we could maybe reduce the number of options by 20%... not sure if that's enough to make a difference.

gary said:
yes yes yes. Reader color is good. Toolbar? With such long scrolling pref screens, maybe the problem is not enough UI elements. iOS is still figuring them out. Invent some of your own. Or toolbar color, and maybe other things could be hidden, and active when let's say one is in preferences and swipes the toolbar.

More hierarchy in the preferences screens would definitely be good, yes - makes it seem less overwhelming even when it isn't. Toolbar color goes hand-in-hand with reader color for that "night mode" scenario at least.
 
At first I, too, was overwhelmed by the amount of customization but at the end of the day it's still great to be able to make it look the way you want it to. 8)
 
I have to agree, please don't simplify the option's menu! I don't find it that complicated, and the manual clarifies anything that is unclear to me. If you really really really want less options, than may I suggest having a Simple / Expert Toggle Mode? That would give us the best of both worlds.
 

gato

状元
Some of the comments might have to be qualified as: "I have a B.S./Ph.D. in physics/computer science. I don't find the settings complicated at all.". :p
 

Entropy

榜眼
I don't think the number of settings is really the issue, I think the complexity of the settings UI is the problem. Steve Dorner dealt with this in Eudora by creating a pseudo-URL that would set a setting to whatever it needed to be, so he could send the user a "link" to change a setting. A consequence of this was that all settings ended up in a text file, so you could set a bunch of them at once using your favorite text editor, and you could SEE all of them at once, along with another text file that told you what each string would do.
 

mikelove

皇帝
Staff member
Entropy said:
I don't think the number of settings is really the issue, I think the complexity of the settings UI is the problem. Steve Dorner dealt with this in Eudora by creating a pseudo-URL that would set a setting to whatever it needed to be, so he could send the user a "link" to change a setting. A consequence of this was that all settings ended up in a text file, so you could set a bunch of them at once using your favorite text editor, and you could SEE all of them at once, along with another text file that told you what each string would do.

Interesting, but I'm not wild about making them invisible like that - much harder for someone to check / change the current status on an iDevice with much-more-complicated document file access.
 

mikelove

皇帝
Staff member
Here's a quick little UI question: what should we do with all of the extra room we've got in the flashcard test interface on iPad?

Top two ideas at the moment are:

1) A sidebar with statistics
2) A scrollable version of the current session card history

Along with making the buttons that are now buried in tabs available all the time.

Does anyone have any others?

Also, somewhat related: how well is the current flashcard button control system working for everyone on iPhone/iPod? Is it too hard to get at important functions like back / undo / etc now? We could consider adding a way to keep some of the buttons from alternate tabs visible all the time on those too - maybe a toolbar above or below the big three buttons that are there now?
 

gato

状元
Maybe you can do a 3D look for the flashcards for a prettier look (to make them look like paper cards, for instance)? The stat idea is good, but I don't think you necessarily fill up the screen. The user will want to concentrate on the cards and go through them quickly anyway.
 

mikelove

皇帝
Staff member
gato said:
Maybe you can do a 3D look for the flashcards for a prettier look (to make them look like paper cards, for instance)? The stat idea is good, but I don't think you necessarily fill up the screen. The user will want to concentrate on the cards and go through them quickly anyway.

Oh that's a given - lots of places should be getting subtle paper / fabric textures. (I much prefer those to metallic / wood / leather ones, anyway)

Though I see your point about concentration... I think it might depend on the user, people who obsessively monitor every mathematical facet of their flashcard study would probably welcome the extra information but those with a more laid-back approach would probably prefer the card and nothing else.
 

Entropy

榜眼
mikelove said:
Interesting, but I'm not wild about making them invisible like that - much harder for someone to check / change the current status on an iDevice with much-more-complicated document file access.

It's a computer, you can have both. The idea that a setting should live only in one place is one of the worst annoyances of Windows (but that was version 3.11, so maybe it's gotten less worse.) Eudora also allowed the user to construct custom settings screens, so you could group things in ways that made sense to you or reveal the esoteric settings you used frequently (which in the case of an alpha tester included the logging settings.)
 

mikelove

皇帝
Staff member
Entropy said:
It's a computer, you can have both. The idea that a setting should live only in one place is one of the worst annoyances of Windows (but that was version 3.11, so maybe it's gotten less worse.) Eudora also allowed the user to construct custom settings screens, so you could group things in ways that made sense to you or reveal the esoteric settings you used frequently (which in the case of an alpha tester included the logging settings.)

Well custom settings screens are unlikely, but there actually is a pretty good case to be made for letting people export / import lists of settings (for inter-device transfers / backups along with our support purposes), and there's no reason we couldn't put that in a simple XML format which one could modify on a computer.
 

mikelove

皇帝
Staff member
Entropy said:
It's a computer, you can have both. The idea that a setting should live only in one place is one of the worst annoyances of Windows (but that was version 3.11, so maybe it's gotten less worse.) Eudora also allowed the user to construct custom settings screens, so you could group things in ways that made sense to you or reveal the esoteric settings you used frequently (which in the case of an alpha tester included the logging settings.)

Well custom settings screens are unlikely, but there actually is a pretty good case to be made for letting people export / import lists of settings (for inter-device transfers / backups along with our support purposes), and there's no reason we couldn't put that in a simple XML format which one could modify on a computer.
 

mikeo

榜眼
A few things that continue to bother me about the UI, based on longtime use of the Palm version and the past year of the iphone version. I've read some of the thread but not all of it -- maybe they've been mentioned here, or it's too late for some of these changes, their tradeoffs are undesirable, etc. Anyway, wanted to put them up for comment.

1) I still miss the Palm version's ability to mix character-drawing and pinyin on lookup input. Having to the HWR and KEY buttons to go back and forth on iphone has always felt a little painful. Especially for 4 or 6 character phrases. Certainly there's a screen real estate problem on iphone (not ipad), and you'd have to draw in a cramped space, but for me this tradeoff would be well worth it.

2) Would like to see the various "Reader" options integrated. Instead of choosing these at the beginning (Optical Char Recognizer; Document File Reader; Web Reader; Lyrics Reader; PasteBoard Reader), I'm imagining a single Reader, with multiple possible sources, analogous to running your browser, then selecting file or URL content sources, so once in Reader (which opens optionally with your last loaded source), you can select (File - document or Lyrics; Pasteboard; URL). And if Document is an image file you can OCR it from there.

3) Would love to see the Pasteboard/Live modes in Web Reader disappear. It would be much nicer to have them both available all the time, one with tap and one with tap-hold. I imagine IOS 4.3 could perhaps have some improvements in chinese handling to make this easier.

4) Again related to screen real estate: on iphone, you have this terrible situation with web reading, where most pages are too small to be legible without blowing up the font, but if you blow up the font you have lots of scrolling to do. THe solution is to process the page to be like a document page - newlines removed, and font sizeable. You can do this now through selecting text, copying to pasteboard, making a file, and loading it into reader. But that's 3 or more steps that could all be done automatically.

5) Another screen real estate issue that's been suggested elsewhere on the forum: auto-hide all the navigation and menu bars when in Reader mode, and redraw them on a tap anywhere on screen. All the pixels are precious reading space.

6) (sneaking in a feature request) Night mode is a great help in reducing eyestrain and increasing readability. Instapaper has a setting using (sensor or clock - not sure) to go into Night mode and out automatically. Saves repeated trips to Settings.

7) This is more of a question. In reader, I'm often tapping on words I pretty much know, have already made a flashcard for but at that reading moment am not absolutely positive of. Each time I tap on those words I'd like Pleco to note that fact on the flashcard, and perhaps increase the "staleness" score of the word so I can pop them up during my next flashcard review. If it does that now, great; if not, it would be a desirable small addition.
 

jiacheng

榜眼
When doing a tap-hold on the add button that lets you change the multi-level category, you are not asked for any confirmation when you select the category. It's easy to pick the wrong category when trying to expand to a deeper level with the arrow buttons. Once you do that, it's a big hassle to to manually edit the card categories to fix it. It would be a big help if there were some kind of screen that would let you confirm your selection.
 
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