2.1 Feature Requests

mikelove

皇帝
Staff member
radioman - do you really think that button-holding interface is better? I'm not generally very fond of it since it doesn't provide enough feedback - could have your finger slip off the button without knowing it - though I guess adding a little vibration when it starts / stops might help with that. Starting instantly is a matter of preloading the audio input library before you hit the record button - not sure how easy that is to do on WM, though.

taijidan - a forecast like that is kind of along the lines of what we're thinking, yes. With that HSK module idea I think I'd rather just have a status report for a category and its subcategories - that way you could use HSK, PCR, or any other common flashcard set you want; we might as well take advantage of the painstakingly-developed single-card-in-multiple-categories feature and go by category inclusion rather than some fixed / built-in HSK list.

thph2006 - #1 is definitely in the pipeline. #2 is actually already doable; just check the "Allow edits during sessions" box in the Flashcards panel in Preferences; we disable it by default since this can occasionally have weird consequences during that session (cards showing up with the wrong number of syllables in multi-choice, say). #3 is waiting on our example sentence database feature but should be easy to implement after that. Good idea on #4. #5 is likewise already possible with "Allow edits during sessions" enabled, but again disabled by default since it can have weird effects on the current session. #6 I'm not sure how much more we're going to develop the pure frequency mode algorithm in general - I'm thinking the new repetition-interval-prioritized option will largely supplant it, though we'll likely leave it around in its current form at least for a few releases for the sake of people who really like that particular study mode. Good idea on #7. #8 feeds off of the character component database as discussed before, #9 is an intriguing possibility - I'd love to integrate it with the category system, though. Maybe we could provide the option to have a list of a few user-selected categories come up before advancing to the next card - you'd just tap on items in that list to toggle whether or not the card was a member of that particular category.

2.1 will probably beat desktop to market, though, 2.1's closely tied with the appearance of flashcards on iPhone and there's enough competitive pressure on that front that we really need to get that squared away before we can turn our attention to the desktop version.

llammamama - good point on replacing both simplified and traditional. And yes, we really do need to do something about multi-line selection.

Sarevok - well in general for the sake of database cleanliness we'd much rather have people storing example sentences in a dedicated example sentence database than a notes one - easier to do other things with that data anyway.

jiacheng - yeah, probably best to consider both of those usages.

mfcb - very good point on long-term predictions. I like your idea of different curves for different recall levels; however, it should also be possible to make a pretty accurate single prediction curve based on past recall rates; we could probably mine enough data for that from our existing card statistics, but if not we could certainly start keeping track of the data we'd need to do it well in the future. I agree with the argument put forward by the creator of Anki that altering card spacings based on overall performance is probably a bad idea - too easy for one wrong card to drag a lot of others down with it - but that doesn't mean we can't use that overall performance data to more accurately predict how quickly you can expect to learn cards going forward, and perhaps also to inform your decision-making about whether to increase / decrease the rate with which you add new cards (or to alter the Aggressiveness setting).

sfrrr - yeah, that fits in with a lot of other stuff we're talking about (and makes a ton of sense in general).

goulniky - you can already turn off most Pinyin rendering simply by setting the Mandarin pronunciation mode to "Skip" in the Display panel of Preferences - would you like the option to display Pinyin in gray in addition to that? Or to, say, hide it in example sentences but show it in headwords?
 

mfcb

状元
mikelove said:
however, it should also be possible to make a pretty accurate single prediction curve based on past recall rates; we could probably mine enough data for that from our existing card statistics, but if not we could certainly start keeping track of the data we'd need to do it well in the future.
i could be wrong, but in my past history of card reviews i feel that i have "good days" and "bad days". this means on some days i can remember almost all cards like i see them every day and therefore know them very well, other times (most probably when i am distracted by some real life problems) i get cards wrong or seem to see them the first time, even if i should know them already. i had the case already, that a cards drops from score 2000 all the way down to below 200 (by -25% per wrong answer). maybe it would be useful to draw also graphs about the history of sessions, when the data is available, hehe.

another refinement of feature request i want to talk about:

i must confess that i was lazy with my cards for some time, and now i have the problem, that i cant catch up anymore. for this reason i implemented my procedure of reviews, that i do now on a daily basis. i still have my "boost" profile, with which i introduce new cards to my set (basically reviewing them, until they have score 200+). next i have my default profile, that i limit now to cards with score below 1200. this is just to keep the amount of cards manageable on one day (<200 cards). if i finish this on my way to/from work, i remove the limit from the profile (uncheck the checkbox) and do as many cards as possible on that day, out of the remaining 4000 cards...

sometimes i manage to reduce the amount of remaining cards to about 3200, but as cards in this set (>1200 score) need to be reviewed again and again, i cant get back to the situation, where i had to review about 400-600 (sometimes 800) a day. i suspect, this is due to the fact, that from these cards i see many cards frequently, others i see maybe never. might be also the reason for some cards dropping score very much (2000->200) when i did see them first after a very long time and later on more frequently, but its still forgotten...

so the new priority based card selection should not only consider a card priority for cards, that i want to review in addition to my daily cards, it already should inside this set have some clever priority selection, that maybe gives higher prio to completely fresh cards, to cards, that i had wrong often recently, and for cards, that based on score and date together i did not see for a long time. the longer the time, the more important the time is. i observe, that cards with score 700 to 1500 are usually the cards, which i know the best. then of course there are easy cards (score already >2500) that one never again forgets (好,你,我...) but these anyway will get buried in the future more and more...
 

goulniky

榜眼
re: pinyin rendering - thanks, I don't want to turn pinyin off though it's good to know it's an option, particularly for examples.

But even keeping it active for the headword, what puzzles me always is how much larger and much prominent pinyin is displayed, not just on Pleco. I guess it's because of the complexitiy of hanzi glyphs vs alphabetic for a given point size, but I think from a learner's perpective it's wrong, the focus should be on hanzi.

I would suggest something akin to furigana in Japanese, or the way bopomofo is displayed on learner's titles in Taiwan. Ultimately, pinyin is just a crutch, what should be engraved in memory is sound + hanzi.

Short answer : keep it, but offer an option to make it smaller / lighter (e.g. grey)
 

radioman

状元
I agree with @goulnlky crutch comment, which is why I would want the option to have the Pinyin completely disappear. Certainly am not saying to eliminate Pinyin though, I just want to be able to hide it.
 

js96

Member
Another idea...

SYNONYM/ANTONYM
On the character info screen, there's a tab for showing all compounds containing or beginning with that character. It would be nice to have that kind of pop-up screen for multi-character words that would show synonyms/antonyms/homonyms; possibly also all compound phrases and 成语 that use that word.

Can't wait to see 2.1 (and the iPhone version)!
 

mikelove

皇帝
Staff member
mfcb - excellent use of the profile system, though not really the one we'd intended - we'd thought people would use it for different kinds of tests but keep the scoring configuration largely the same.

But yes, the priority system would also support some sort of ordering within a session - pretty important, actually, since you might not always know exactly how much time you have available to study. The recently wrong and not-seen-in-a-while cards are logical choices to come first, but the new cards I'm not so sure about - I think we'd want to put those after the other two, since if you have very limited time you really don't even want to be adding new vocabulary at all if it comes at cost of forgetting things you've already learned.

goulniky - I don't know if we could even fit Pinyin below / next to characters like furigana (for that we'd be better off using Zhuyin and making people learn that) but allowing some greater customization of Pinyin display in general makes sense, at least at the level of having adjustable font sizes and text colors.

radioman - it should be completely hidden with that "None" setting, except in a few dictionaries (Tuttle / NWP / Oxford) where we haven't gotten all of the Pinyin examples coded up properly yet - NWP and Tuttle at least should get that coding added in future updates.

js96 - we'd love to add something like that, but we haven't yet found a good Chinese thesaurus we can license; don't even know if anyone's really developed one as yet.
 

radioman

状元
Yes, I see the Pinyin can be turned off for ACE, but not all.

What I am ultimately hoping is that there would be:

  • - a convenient way to quickly turn Pinyin off and on without having to move to different screens
    - able to be applied to any page of information within the application that has mixed Hanzi and Pinyin
    - a way to set the default so as you enter a page, it will be in the Pinyin reveal mode, where every next item brought up is in the "hide mode or unhide mode - or the next item brought up just be whatever the last setting was (i.e., reveal or not reveal)
Also, I certainly do not understand all the aspects (or any for that matter...) of the dictionary coding, but would it be possible to set some sort of filter so that any Pinyin targeted for "today's" display could would be identified and just not shown on the screen irrespective of however a dictionary was encoded? I figure Pinyin as a reasonably finite database set, and Pinyin should be able to be differentiated from any English or Hanzi. Not sure what that would do with regard to formatting of the pages, ultimate speed of page rendering, etc. If invoked, maybe you would wind up with a tilda and two periods in a row that would also have to be checked and removed.

The advantage to the filter is that it could be then applied to any dictionary, user made flashcard, or any other documents that find their way to/through Pleco.

Anyway, just some thoughts.
 

radioman

状元
I actually have some mixed feelings about this. My main interest is making it fast and easy. I think the biggest problem about the press to record is that 3rd parties would not naturally understand that.

I would propose
- a press to start and another to stop the recording.
- at the point of the recording starting, having a short vibration
- another vibration at the termination of the recording
- add an additional search parameter in Pleco's search/filter routines for to include a filter to show all cards with audio files, or all files without. In this way, if there are cards without audio that are needed, one could quickly search and record audio without hunting.

by mikelove » Thu Sep 24, 2009 7:49 pm
radioman - do you really think that button-holding interface is better? I'm not generally very fond of it since it doesn't provide enough feedback - could have your finger slip off the button without knowing it - though I guess adding a little vibration when it starts / stops might help with that. Starting instantly is a matter of preloading the audio input library before you hit the record button - not sure how easy that is to do on WM, though.
 

ldolse

状元
Component Support
  • I'm surprised I didn't see this one come up already, is this on the table for 2.1, or is it a farther out feature? Lately as I learn new characters I've been creating little mnemonics out of the components. When I come across components I don't recognize in a flashcard session, I need to bail out, draw the component to see if it's something in the dictionary and/or scan the radical dictionary for it. It would be great to have another tab in Char Info which listed out the components and the meanings of each one.

Popup Definition Enhancements
  • Would like to see a number of things around pop-up def, which I use all the time:
  • Links can't be followed from Pop-Up Def, being able to follow links would be awesome. I don't want a back button or any more clutter to it, though an enhanced context menu which had that as an option might be a good clutter free choice.
  • Add Popup Def support to the Add User Dictionary entry window. My biggest beef with creating new user entries is getting the Pinyin tones correct after I've entered the Hanzi. This is a really painful process, the more characters I use the more painful it is. Adding Pop-Up def to this window would trivialize it. I saw there was some other discussion previously about trying to do this based off existing dictionary entries and some super smart logic, but I think this would be a better general purpose solution, and probably be easier to implement.

Backup Solution
  • Discussed a bit in some other threads, but can't wait to have some Brain Dead way to back up my flashcards and User Dict entries, preferably to the Internet so no PC is required.

Handwriting Practice Mode
  • Would be great to have a view which combines stroke order plus a HWR box so that I can practice handwriting while reviewing the stroke order.

Pinyin Rendering
  • Agree 100% with Goulniky on this one. The Pinyin in the C-E dictionaries is too large and bold. I attempted to explain this back during the beta and failed. I realized going through the dictionaries the other day that the E-C dictionaries don't have this problem. If you look at E-C ABC, Oxford, or NWP, you'll see that Pinyin, Hanzi, and English all has the same weight. However if you look at any C-E titles, specifically ABC, Tuttle, and ACE, you'll see it's quite the opposite. All the Pinyin in the definition is weighted as heavily as the headword pinyin (depending on Headword font size headword Pinyin may be more heavily emphasized than headword hanzi!). The definition Pinyin shouldn't be weighted thus (and the headword pinyin could be weighted less as well). What I would actually prefer to see is the reverse, no emphasis on Pinyin (graying out is an interesting option), and a heavier weight/size on the definition body Hanzi.

Last item isn't a feature request, just a comment on Radioman's idea of a hold to press button for recording. A way of doing this which provides more feedback is to have a sliding button. Slide the button to one direction and hold it there to record. If released it slides back to it's original position. HTC did this in their latest phone answering interface. There is a big button that slides two directions for phone calls, slide left for answer, and slide right for ignore/reject. It's quite effective and avoids punching the wrong button. This may also be a good UI design to make it easier for users to choose right/wrong answer in flashcards without fatfingering it, thus eliminating the need for the 'undo' feature request.
 

sinoreen

举人
1) Notes for FCs or for dict entries in general
2) An option in the reader to select characters (eg. not only a word, but a whole sentence) and add them to a custom FC. Same would be great if it was possible within the IA. When browsing the web, highlighting a sentence and adding it to FCs via the IA.
3) A way to see whether a dict entry already exists as FC (see 3rd point from daniel123)
4) Reorganizing the Add/Edit Custom Entry Screen. Tabs and/or making use of the whole screen size.
5) UNDO in FC testing mode

By the way, when and based on which criteria will you decide whether 2.1. will also be available for Palm OS?
 

mikelove

皇帝
Staff member
radioman - could add a button for disabling Pinyin, I guess, as with SC/TC. Filtering any Pinyin might be doable with an intelligent filter, I suppose - we'd store them in the database in sylalble+number format and then render that to tone-marked / Zhuyin / nothing at all depending on your setting. Dropping the tilde would be workable once our databases were coded correctly, but doing it in user dictionaries would be tough - of course people aren't likely to use tildes in their own examples anyway.

A flashcard audio search is a very good idea, definitely. A tap + vibration makes a lot of sense, maybe accompanied by a screen-flash or something as well - tough to be sure about that until we actually try it, though, the feel of it / actual level of lag / etc are all big factors here.

ldolse - it should definitely be coming in 2.1, but it may be rather limited at first (list components / characters containing components, probably also some sort of multi-component replacement for radical search, but maybe not much beyond that until a later version), and will involve a (cheap) paid add-on database.

Links in popup definitions are easy enough to implement, but the question is what sort of UI we provide - would we just be replacing the popup definition with the newly linked one? Or, say, pop up another definition box on top of it?

Handwriting practice... so this would basically be an extension of the Char Info Stroke Order screen with a handwriting draw box?

The emphasis on Pinyin in ABC at least is philosophical - if it were up to John DeFrancis there'd scarcely be any characters in there at all. But providing the means to customize the rendering of different parts of dictionary definitions is definitely something we want to add - a lot of the support for that is already present in a few of our databases, it's just a matter of putting a good user interface on top of the customization (and maybe adding support for it to some of our other not-yet-covered dictionaries).

Interesting idea on the slider, though that feels like more of an iPhone design idea - I guess introducing some of those concepts to the now-very-often-finger-driven Windows Mobile makes sense too.

sinoreen - all good points. We definitely need a way to enable regular selection in the reader and it'd make sense to let people dump that to flashcards too

As far as 2.1 on Palm, it's not so much a question of whether there'll be any sort of 2.1 release on Palm as of what features we'll put in - things that are primarily engine-based and don't involve a lot of new UI will almost certainly make it onto Palm (as long as they don't seem extremely crash-prone on it), but things that bring in a lot of brand new interfaces / screens may not. Refinements to existing screens might still make sense, though, particularly if the Pre / webOS continues to do well. (or, better yet, if the rumors about Nokia buying Palm and replacing Symbian with webOS come true)
 

stisev

进士
Mike,
I believe I requested this before, but I'll re-request. The biggest glaring deficiency in Pleco is clear: no portability. Please please please allow the user to save ALL settings to .ini, .config, etc. format inside of the Pleco format (NOT registry).
Also, please give user the choice of saving all settings, files, etc. inside of the Pleco folder!
 
mikelove said:
Handwriting practice... so this would basically be an extension of the Char Info Stroke Order screen with a handwriting draw box?

This would be quite useful if it were implemented as a small 'practice writing' button on the char info stroke order screen. Tapping this button would turn what Was the stroke order diagram into a large empty drawing box (or input box maybe) and the 'practice writing' button would turn into a 'show character' button. Once you drew what you thought the character looked like in the empty drawing box, you could click the 'show character button, and then a transparency (mabye 50% or something) of the character would be displayed on top of what you drew. Another click of the button would set things back to normal or let you try again.

This would give a great way to quickly practice character balance and relative stroke lengths, etc. This is definitely something I struggle with and it would be a welcome feature.
 

ldolse

状元
I saw the component functionality in the iphone video, if it's going to be along those lines then that should be great. More interested in the Character Info than the search by component, though both would be great.

For linking popup definitions, I was just thinking clicking the link would just replace the popup def with the latest linked one. I think that would be less annoying than having a bunch of little popup def windows to close.

Handwriting practice could basically be exactly what you describe, add an HWR section to the existing stroke order view. Basic idea is it would be great to watch the strokes play, then repeat them in the HWR until you get a good feel for it, and basically once you have it just right then that character should always be the first one in the results list.
 

mikelove

皇帝
Staff member
stisev - yeah, you have mentioned that before - the biggest issue with saving / restoring preferences is error-checking; once users have freer access to preferences, we have to add a lot more code to make sure they aren't being set to invalid values / combinations of values. So it's not as simple a feature to add as it might seem, though I'd certainly agree it offers a lot of benefits.

llammamama - makes sense. Though I'm not sure if the stroke order diagram characters would be the best choice for this - might be better to use our built-in Song font, or better still to allow adding a separate one; something closer to a 楷体 typeface would probably be the best bet for comparing your handwriting / stroke weights / etc against.

(even more fun in a desktop version, since a dedicated graphics tablet would allow us to factor in pressure and direction)

ldolse - well bear in mind that not every component has a Unihan entry; we might eventually add them on our own for very common components, though. Makes sense about popup definitions, though on iPhone we do employ that sort of multi-level delving-down (fits better with the UI conventions on iPhone, though).

Embedded handwriting like you describe could be interesting - wouldn't even need to display a list of results, we could just add some sort of indicator to tell you whether you'd drawn the character well enough to have it come up as the first match. Since the main purpose of this would seem to be conditioning you to enter characters correctly for handwriting input.
 

stisev

进士
stisev - yeah, you have mentioned that before - the biggest issue with saving / restoring preferences is error-checking; once users have freer access to preferences, we have to add a lot more code to make sure they aren't being set to invalid values / combinations of values. So it's not as simple a feature to add as it might seem, though I'd certainly agree it offers a lot of benefits.

I don't understand; aren't you arguing my case for me? If they set a bunch of invalid values/combinations, they can just delete the pleco.config/ini file and start over OR send it to you by email (?) to check for errors. A lot of people backup using programs like SPB Backup so it'd be great to keep Pleco on a storage card and not worry about losing your settings/files/etc in the process and all I would have to do is backup the .ini/config files / or the pleco folder.


Some other wonderful suggestions:
Major:
1) PLEASE port that feature I saw on the Pleco iPhone version -- component list. very cool stuff. This could REALLY help users memorize the meanings!
2) Make touch friendly like iPhone version :)

Minor:
1) When tapping on a character to bring up the stroke order, please make the "play" button the default. it sucks having to scroll down with my D-pad to get to the play (for those who are using d-pads)
2) Same menu as #1... I can't believe this hasn't been suggested -- can you add a "loop" checkbox, so that pleco keeps looping the character writing until user intervenes. This would be immensely useful for most people IMO.
3) Add a "rename" button to the "Manage Categories" tab (this was suggested before)
4) Move and Group in "Manage Categories" is slow and clunky. Just allow the user to move the set of cards he wants anyway by click and drag. Simple & effective :)
5)Create new tool-bar button to choose between default flashcard categories (I know we can do this but we have to go through several menus!)

Bug fixes:
1) Pleco commands are still not working via Xperia X1-tested keyboard. For example, I cannot "clear" the word-entry list using a designated key as described by previous post. I believe it will work with my main buttons, but NOT my keyboard buttons, or buttons located on the keyboard. Pleco does indeed recognize the button (example: it says 1CBE for the keyboard code or whatever).

2) Occasionally when opening and closing the X1 (which has autorotate when pulling the keyboard open, pleco's flashcards have a white screen with a scrollbar with no user-intervention buttons. Closing out of flashcards fixes it, but it happens randomly and very occasionally.
 

mikelove

皇帝
Staff member
stisev - no, because if we make them easier to edit we also make it easier for someone to accidentally set them to an invalid set of values; that's harder to do when they're being controlled by the application.

Component list is definitely coming, though I should stress again that some of those components don't have definitions (in Unihan or anywhere else) - the system on iPhone is pretty rudimentary, we implemented it because we happened to have the database for it on iPhone anyway (since we're using that same database for stroke order diagrams).

Good points on minor #1/2/5. #3 and #4 are kind of working at cross purposes - you can already rename categories by tapping on their names, so do you want us to replace that more elegant interface with a button but replace the Move/Group buttons with a more elegant interface?

The keyboard command system on WM really needs to be rewritten - to be honest it's one of the most confoundingly inconsistent parts of the entire Windows Mobile programming interface library, there doesn't seem to be any good unified way to intercept button commands; we can get it working with most buttons on most devices but there's no good way to get them all.

Not sure about that other bug - was there text displaying correctly before you opened / closed the X1?
 

mfcb

状元
mikelove said:
stisev - no, because if we make them easier to edit we also make it easier for someone to accidentally set them to an invalid set of values; that's harder to do when they're being controlled by the application.

hehe, then how about doing the backup in "binary" format, so that its user-UNreadable ?
 

stisev

进士
Not sure about that other bug - was there text displaying correctly before you opened / closed the X1?

Yes, text was displaying correctly. Everything was fine except for the fact that there were no "digital" buttons at the bottom and the scrollbar was missing.


hehe, then how about doing the backup in "binary" format, so that its user-UNreadable ?

I agree. Mike, I know you'd got a lot on your plate, but in the end-user department, user-choice of portability is one of the standards for all great software. Without portability, great software cannot remain great.
The whole point is not to edit the config, but to preserve settings inside of the Pleco directory. :D
 

mikelove

皇帝
Staff member
A binary preferences file could work, I guess, as long as we made it platform-specific; we're already storing them in a binary file on iPhone since the iPhone's built-in preferences store isn't really powerful enough for our needs, so it'd just be a matter of switching from the registry to that on WM.
 
Top