Using dictionaries learning chinese - Impossible?!

[repters]

Hi;

(if somebody already wrote a post about this, sorry - i used the search function but did not find anything useful)

Im learning Chinese - i would rank myself as being about B2-level (probably conservative guess, as i can speak fluently; i just severely lack vocabulary).

My problem: I often read books in order to expand my vocabulary. Of course, i encouter a hughe load of new words. Therefore, i have been searching for years in order to get good dictionaries. But: The dictionaries on the market all seem to be totally unusuable.

Dont get me wrong - Pleco is probably the best.

But even Pleco seems to be totally unusuable for me.

When i look up a word, in about 50% of the cases:

1. The dictionaries i consult all disagree whether it is a noun, verb, adjective... often i look in 3 dictionaries; one only lists it as a noun, one only as an adjective, one only as verb. Now, PLEASE dont tell me thats because "in Chinese, words can often be used as verb eben though also adjective" etc. - that is NOT true. If you can use that word in both respects, it simply means that technically it would be an adjective AND a Verb (e.g.: 红 means "red", but you can also say "他的脸红了"). I KNOW about that since im no total beginner in Chinese. But very often, a word will in Chinese only have one way it can be used - the dictionaries will still all disagree.

The dictionaries are always CLEARLY WRONG about it being also a verb etc. - i can find that out quickly when i ask a native speaker.

Very often, a dictionary will also say something like "to do (NOUN)" - what the fuck?!! Is it a noun or a verb now?!!

I think, the person who put together the dictionaries had NO concept what a verb EVEN IS.

2. The dictionaries almost always just throw a random word in the other language as translation at you. Which does NOT help, because there will always be about 10 very different ways in english how you can use that word, and normally only 1-2 work in Chinese also. Why not TELL people that? When you see "生活情调与豪华品位" in a tourist guide, and you wonder what the precise meaning of 情调 and 品位 would be here, you would get "sentimentality" and "grade (mining, ore grade)". So, if you would do a simple translation, it would come out as "life sentimentality and luxurious grade". Tell that to an english native speaker and ask him what that means... just rubbish (I understand what it means here, it was just an example).

---> Conclusion: I have the feeling that ALL the dictionaries out there have been put together by somebody who simply did not care at ALL about grammar, precise meaning etc.

So, either
- you already KNOW the meaning - than you can understand what mistake the person who created the dictionary made. But wtf, then you dont need the dictionary?
- you do NOT already know the meaning. Well, then youre just fucked.
You will get a result like "it could be only a noun, only a verb, only an adjective, or a mixture of all that. Since 2/5 dictionaries listed is as only a noun, there is a 60% chance that is is a noun. Oh, and the meaning has something to do with feelings".

Hooray!!!!

You just found a way of wasting shitloads of time and doint NOTHING for your Chinese.

Sorry i write so aggressively. I just cannot believe over 1 billion people speak this language, but the dictionaries all suck...


Any tips for me?

 

[mikelove]

1. The dictionaries i consult all disagree whether it is a noun, verb, adjective... often i look in 3 dictionaries; one only lists it as a noun, one only as an adjective, one only as verb. Now, PLEASE dont tell me thats because "in Chinese, words can often be used as verb eben though also adjective" etc. - that is NOT true. If you can use that word in both respects, it simply means that technically it would be an adjective AND a Verb (e.g.: 红 means "red", but you can also say "他的脸红了"). I KNOW about that since im no total beginner in Chinese. But very often, a word will in Chinese only have one way it can be used - the dictionaries will still all disagree.

The dictionaries are always CLEARLY WRONG about it being also a verb etc. - i can find that out quickly when i ask a native speaker.

Very often, a dictionary will also say something like "to do (NOUN)" - what the fuck?!! Is it a noun or a verb now?!!

It sounds here like you've downloaded the Adsotrans dictionary add-on - have you? That one comes from a database designed to be used in Chinese text translation systems, so those tags served a functional purpose when it was created - words had to be tagged both ways so that they could be recognized as both when the reader encountered them and tried to parse the grammar - but they can be a bit confusing in Pleco; if they bother you I'd suggest deleting that database and seeing if that improves your experience. We offer it as a download because it includes quite a bit of vocabulary that isn't available anywhere else, and a lot of people find it useful for that reason, but in your case it may be that it's more trouble than it's worth.

The best part-of-speech tagging in our current dictionaries is probably in the paid ABC add-on, so that might be worth looking into if you're bothered by the level of support for it in the dictionaries you have now.

2. The dictionaries almost always just throw a random word in the other language as translation at you. Which does NOT help, because there will always be about 10 very different ways in english how you can use that word, and normally only 1-2 work in Chinese also. Why not TELL people that? When you see "生活情调与豪华品位" in a tourist guide, and you wonder what the precise meaning of 情调 and 品位 would be here, you would get "sentimentality" and "grade (mining, ore grade)". So, if you would do a simple translation, it would come out as "life sentimentality and luxurious grade". Tell that to an english native speaker and ask him what that means... just rubbish (I understand what it means here, it was just an example).

How is that a random word? PLC's definition for 品位 appears to be a bit outdated since it's no longer just for mining - thanks for pointing that out, we'll correct it - but CC and others just list it as "grade," which it basically is. "sentiment" is likewise a pretty good translation for 情调, which is why three different dictionaries agree on it - what other word would you have them use?

 

[repters]

1. Thanks about clarifying the thing with Adsotrans - you are indeed correct, that was the one doing it. I still dont understand e.g. why the entry for 长期 has "(NOUN) long term", when i feel it is only 形容词 and 副词. Even if it was for machine purposes earlier, how can a computer benefit from a classification as noun when that is just not correct?

Or is 长期 indeed (also) a noun? Still, as you can see, it gets me confused.

But what i got from your entry is that i should pretty much ignore the thing in brackets in adsotrans, and thats what i´ll do. Thanks!
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2. I understand from your reply - for which i again thank you - that you would like more specific examples of what im speaking of.

If it really interests you, i can indeed post many examples here (i just have to collect them for a few days while im keeping translating). But what i wanted was not discuss the translations of individual words; rather, to ask others - who may have way more experience with Chinese than me, since im not that advanced - how useful they feel dictionaries really are as a systematic learning tool (as opposed to just using them to guess the meaning of a particular word once in a while, but asking native speakers as primary "translation/learning method").

2 random examples from the word classification thing:

-> 充满 - is it only a verb (Adsotrans, Pleco) or only an adjective (HanDeDict, CEDICT)? I think that Adsotrans and Pleco are correct here? I would say that when you want to use the adjective, you would have to use 满 for things? But i really cant say as im not good enough in Chinese to decide this. But you will have to admit that when you look it up, you will get 2 votes for verb and 2 votes for adjective... in the end you have to ask a native speaker if you want to understand what it really is.

-> check out the word classifications for some words for ca. "normal" and "normally" ->
平时
- ADS says "peacetime", what the f...?!
- CC, PLC, HDD have it right though (only adverb, "normally")
一般
- ADS JUST says "average" and only has it as adjective. I feel that this is wrong because its definitely also an adverb, and the translation if a bit... well...
- CC says "same, ordinary, common, general, generally, in general" -> the translation is OK i guess, but without examples, how can you profit from the translation "same"? It is not self-explanatory. You would need the examples (e.g. the one from pleco).
- Pleco has very detailed examples - nice! This is what i was speaking of.
通常
- Pleco seems to think it is mainly an adjective (well, at least this is the first translation). I personally feel it is almost always an adverb? When do you hear "这是一件很通常的事情"? 通常有的 - OK. But as adjective?

Im not saying the translations are very wrong. Im just saying if you dont already know the target language, the translation will only give you a rough idea, and confuse you about the specifics.

3. Also, i dont want to give the impression this is me badmouthing pleco, that is not what i meant. Come on, you never had the problem im referring to? Im not saying pleco and the associated dictionaries are bad. Im just saying the overall standard in Chinese dictionaries seems to be really low to me, compared to other languages (and especially world languages).

When i look up an english word in a good englisch-german dic, it will have a very precise translation with precise examples.


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For now, i think what i would really like from Pleco is to have the good Chinese-Chinese dictionaries embedded. As i already said, for example the 现代汉语词典 has helped me many many times when the other dictionaries only confused me. It has very precise abstract explanations for every word. But the other chinese-chinese dictionaries would also do.

But i think i heard somewhere you were already working on this...

Im just saying: Normally i am reluctant to throw money at things, but i would GLADLY pay noticeable amounts of money to have (more) good Chinese-Chinese, Chinese-English and Chinese-German dictionaries embedded, because it would help me a LOT while translating stuff.

My "checklist" for good dicts (but i know this is mostly just wishful thinking):

- LOTS of examples!!!
- CLEAR classification if noun/verb/adjective/adverb!
- translations that the authors found/checked themselves, NOT JUST COPIED FROM ANOTHER DICTIONARY!!! (many times i look up a word in 5 dics, 4 of them will have the exact same wording, even with the examples - BAH!)
- BONUS ROUND (but until today i have never seen a dictionary capable of this): Explanation what difference this word has to similar words. e.g. 普通, 正常, 一般 etc.; or 猜想 and 猜测.

This can all be tested by applying the "一般-Test", haha. Cos there are MANY words for "normal" and "normally" in Chinese, and some can only be adjective, some only adverb, some both; a good dictionary will clearly mark this and give examples. A VERY good one would, in my opinion, point out the other words that are similar.

I would like to point out my - imho well-formulated - sentence from above:

A today chinese dictionary will give you a rough idea about the translatino, and confuse you about the specifics.

I would like to have dictionaries that can give me a rough idea when i look at them briefly, but which i can really STUDY to learn about the PRECISE meanings of a word.

But maybe thats just me...

greetz and sorry for the long post
Lars

 

[yoose]

i do not have for you on why dictionaries are the way they are, but dictionaries have certainly helped me learn. i think part of it is China was closed for so long that there was not as much work on it from before as opposed to Europe where all the countries are so close together, people started learning the other languages a long time ago so the dictionaries have been iterated for a long time.

in your examples above, i think 平时 can be short hand for peacetime, like 和平的时间
also a couple of your examples you say the dictionary says adjective, but you think its an adverb. In chinese some 形容词 will be used on verbs. In English we consider them an adverb which confused me as well, but my teacher says thats they way it is. I think perhaps that adjective is the best translation for 形容词 although its not the most precise.

i think a lot of words do not translate precisely, one example for me is 孝顺 the dictionaries define it as filial, show filial obedience or filial piety. it is obedience but not just that and piety has a religious connotation that does not fit. If you want that then you would probably need to use a chinese-chinese dictionary to know the precise meaning and differences or a dictionary that contains a lot of example sentences. For me, translating to Cantonese helps with understanding the word sometimes, but even then, sometimes when my classmates ask me what it means in English I can not always give them a precise answer.

It seems that you want something more like an encyclopedia of 汉字 as opposed to a dictionary. although I do think a thesaurus would be quite helpful. don't give up though

 

[LongShiKong]

Repters, thanks for posting this. I too have encountered this and other issues, and not just with the ADSO dictionary. Such problems (and ones I posted about regarding coursebook glossaries and finding a reasonably representative character frequency list) have also frustrated my efforts in studying Chinese. Such problems in my mind stem primarily from cultural differences:

a) an overall lack of thoroughness or attention to detail on the part of those who write such dictionaries and coursebooks
(it's not a labour of love but an assigned duty)--there's no sense here in China of a vocation being a divine or personal calling;
b) a lack of fluency in English, or what I'd call 'credentialed arrogance' or assumed mastery of English on account of one's certification (Remember, those entrusted to compile such dictionaries were chosen not for their competency nor interest but merely for their test scores);
c) without such understanding nor appreciation for the subtleties of a foreign language (differences between synonyms, for example), such dictionaries and coursebooks are merely translated, not specifically written with the needs of non-native speakers in mind.

 

[feng]

I find dictionaries don't disagree with each other that much, though most of them do suck in a very big way. Many don't even bother to note the part of speech. As to your example, while I am no grammarian, I would argue that in 她的臉紅了 it is at least as much about 了， not only 紅。 In any case, please recall that adjectives in Chinese are technically called "stative verbs". You would do well to look into just what that means (hint: they are not identical to English adjectives).

i can speak fluently

I KNOW about that since im no total beginner in Chinese.

I think I see the problem here . . .

As for your item 2, don't try to translate tourist literature or political slogans -- if you do, they'll both make you laugh till you need to change your drawers. But seriously, the reason I first wanted to learn Chinese (still the best reason for me) is that I was reading some translated stuff and realized the problem wasn't the translator. The problem seemed to be, for I knew not one word of Chinese then, was the difference in the languages and their accompanying cultures. The Chinese are an inexact bunch, and they rather like it that way. They had essentially no history of grammar until it was imported. Their dictionaries were single character (except for allusions/idioms) until the early twentieth century.

Sorry i write so aggressively.

:mrgreen:

Any tips for me?

Do you know the zen story about the professor who goes to visit the zen monk who pours him tea until it overflows onto the table?