Maximum Score issues

jiacheng

榜眼
Last year I was concerned that the 204800 Maximum score was going to start affecting me at some point and we had determined that I could just reduce all my scores by 80%, and change points per day to 20 instead of 100. That seemed like a good solution at the time, however that day is coming up in about two weeks where some of my scores will increase beyond the maximum, and now that I'm on android, it seems that I do not have the option of tweaking the points per day parameter. Any ideas?
 

jiacheng

榜眼
Whoops, just realized that I had selcted frequency adjust when testing out settings in a new profile and it naturally didn't give me the option of adjusting points per day there.
 

jiacheng

榜眼
So after having finally implemented this, I have noticed that the system seems to be ignoring an initial increase of 80 points and preferring to increase it to 200 instead.

I know we hashed it out at one point, but I would really hope that the 204800 limit could be eliminated on Android and iOS, I feel that it's really a bad idea. I think long intervals are very much necessary, especially for writing practice as even native Chinese speakers forget how to write characters if they haven't written them for a long enough time.
 

mikelove

皇帝
Staff member
jiacheng said:
So after having finally implemented this, I have noticed that the system seems to be ignoring an initial increase of 80 points and preferring to increase it to 200 instead.
How is it configured? Does the number 200 appear anywhere in "Tweak parameters"?

jiacheng said:
I know we hashed it out at one point, but I would really hope that the 204800 limit could be eliminated on Android and iOS, I feel that it's really a bad idea. I think long intervals are very much necessary, especially for writing practice as even native Chinese speakers forget how to write characters if they haven't written them for a long enough time.
Honestly, it's tricky enough and little-demanded enough that it'll probably only happen when we're rewriting the scoring system anyway - we eventually do plan to do that (making all scores floating-point numbers), but it's just not a popular enough request to move it higher up in the queue.
 

jiacheng

榜眼
mikelove said:
How is it configured? Does the number 200 appear anywhere in "Tweak parameters"?
Not that I can see. I'm wondering if it is somehow assuming that because the default score of a card is 100 when it hasn't been reviewed that it does not apply the first increase and rather just decides to treat it as if it had been reviewed previously. I'm using a correct scale score increase of 100%.

mikelove said:
Honestly, it's tricky enough and little-demanded enough that it'll probably only happen when we're rewriting the scoring system anyway - we eventually do plan to do that (making all scores floating-point numbers), but it's just not a popular enough request to move it higher up in the queue.
Considering that I've been using the flashcard module since the early release of pleco 2.0 on windows mobile, and that I'm only just now starting to encounter this issue, up to this point I'd wager to say that not many other users have had the time to build up scores to the point that the maximum limit would exceed the 204800 limit. Granted, I am probably one of the more hardcore flashcard users, but the other thing is that if there are other hardcore flashcard users that started around the iOS release, they very well may not even be aware of the 204800 limit, thus have no way of requesting it.
 

HW60

状元
jiacheng said:
Granted, I am probably one of the more hardcore flashcard users, but the other thing is that if there are other hardcore flashcard users that started around the iOS release, they very well may not even be aware of the 204800 limit, thus have no way of requesting it.
I started with flashcards during Windows Mobile, but I actually do not understand the problem: With 100% increase for a correct answer (spaced repetition!), the top score before you reach 204800 is 102400. With 20 points per day and 365 days a year that means that you had waited 102400/20/365 = 14 years - that is longer than Pleco exists. And when the score reaches 204800, you have 28 years for the next test to come. I probably must have misunderstood something.
 

jiacheng

榜眼
HW60 said:
I started with flashcards during Windows Mobile, but I actually do not understand the problem: With 100% increase for a correct answer (spaced repetition!), the top score before you reach 204800 is 102400. With 20 points per day and 365 days a year that means that you had waited 102400/20/365 = 14 years - that is longer than Pleco exists. And when the score reaches 204800, you have 28 years for the next test to come. I probably must have misunderstood something.
14 years is not the limit that I'm complaining about. That is not something that would affect me for quite a while, however, the score progression for a new card according to my settings should be: 20, 80, 166, 359... but it's jumping straight to 200 on the first correct answer. Statistics will also have a slight problem in that 100 points is the lowest level. You may also remember from the discussion last year, I was planning to use a setting of 10 points per day, but after it failed to work, mike found that there was an undocumented minimum of 20. So, 14 years will not cause problems for quite a while, but I feel nervous because I rely on flashcards heavily, and judging by my personal experience, there are potential problems by using a non-standard 'points per day' setting.
 

HW60

状元
jiacheng said:
however, the score progression for a new card according to my settings should be: 20, 80, 166, 359... but it's jumping straight to 200 on the first correct answer. Statistics will also have a slight problem in that 100 points is the lowest level.
Did you try starting from main screen
* Flashcards
* Review Flashcards
* Scoring
* Tweak parameters
* INITIAL CORRECT SCORE
Correct 42 (or 40 or 80 ...)
* SCORE LIMITS
Minimum score 20

and

* Flashcards
* Review Flashcards
* Card Selection
* Points per day 20 ?

That should increase the score from 20 (minimum score) by 110% (correct scale score increase correct = 110) to 42 after the first correct answer, then to 88, 185, 389 ... (20*210%, 42*210%, 88*210% ...).
 

mfcb

状元
i consider myself also as a hardcore flashcard user, but i set my max score to 10000. this already means i see the card again after about 3 months. i dont see any benefit of seeing a card again after 6 years or more
 

HW60

状元
mfcb said:
i consider myself also as a hardcore flashcard user, but i set my max score to 10000. this already means i see the card again after about 3 months. i dont see any benefit of seeing a card again after 6 years or more
That depends on the number of cards you have, which score the cards have on average and how many cards you like to see per day. I set my top score to 50000 to see the cards after 500 days latest. I do not need to repeat 日 or 月and some other cards from my first lessons, because it only increases the dayly workload. The difficult cards unfortunately never reach the top score, so I see them more often than I like to.
 

jiacheng

榜眼
HW60: Yes, I set all those parameters.

HW60 & mcbf:

I do not believe in a maximum score, simply because in my experience, you can forget anything if you don't use it long enough. Just ask any Chinese person who has graduated college and uses computers on a regular basis. They often forget how to write those less frequently occurring characters, or characters with high stroke counts.

So, some people seem to think that if you forget it after 6 years that it wasn't important enough to learn in the first place. however I think the above example runs completely counter to that idea. There have been some cards, although not many that I have forgotten after not having reviewed for nearly 2 years, so I suspect that after 6 years, I would forget some as well. Human memory is just imperfect, and all I have to do is review a card once ever 6 or 14 years to find out, then that's not a big deal. There are also certain kinds of memories that are more stable than others, for example, I find that my recognition tests tend to have very high correct percentages, where as expression and writing tend to be somewhat lower. So, after viewing my own multi year results, I believe that the ability to have large time intervals is going to be very useful.
 

mfcb

状元
yeah, i am completely with you, i dont want to forget anything i spent a lot of time to learn it. so i set my max score to 10000, to see every vocab at least again in 3 months time... you would be surprised, how many of them i still forget :lol:
 

jiacheng

榜眼
mfcb said:
yeah, i am completely with you, i dont want to forget anything i spent a lot of time to learn it. so i set my max score to 10000, to see every vocab at least again in 3 months time... you would be surprised, how many of them i still forget :lol:
I would suggest that you try removing the maximum and tweaking the spaced repetition parameters to something that gives you a more consistent rate of success. I've read that 90% or so is supposed to be optimal. I use 3 profiles(reading, writing & expression) for a deck of 15,000+ cards, if I were to set it to 10,000, that would be a minimum of 150 reviews a day per profile, so a total of 450, assuming all cards had the maximum score of 10,000. I would be spending all day just to get my flashcards done and would have no time left over for classes or homework, much less add in any new vocabulary.
 

HW60

状元
jiacheng said:
I use 3 profiles(reading, writing & expression) for a deck of 15,000+ cards, if I were to set it to 10,000, that would be a minimum of 150 reviews a day per profile, so a total of 450, assuming all cards had the maximum score of 10,000.
If you have 1 card with a score of 10,000 and points per day is 20 (!), then you see this card 10,000/20 = every 500 days. If you have 500 cards, you see 1 card per day. If you have 15,000 cards, you see 30 cards per day and per profile (90 all together). If you set points per day to 100, you see 150 cards per day and per profile, 450 all together.
 

jiacheng

榜眼
HW60 said:
If you have 1 card with a score of 10,000 and points per day is 20 (!), then you see this card 10,000/20 = every 500 days. If you have 500 cards, you see 1 card per day. If you have 15,000 cards, you see 30 cards per day and per profile (90 all together). If you set points per day to 100, you see 150 cards per day and per profile, 450 all together.
HW60: I believe mcbf is using 100 points per day since he stated that vocabulary would be cycled in 3 months, so if I used the same maximum interval, then it's 450.
 

HW60

状元
jiacheng said:
HW60: I believe mcbf is using 100 points per day since he stated that vocabulary would be cycled in 3 months, so if I used the same maximum interval, then it's 450.
There are 2 things to calculate:

time until next test (days) = score / points per day
no. of cards per day = no. of cards * points per day / score

You are right, mfcb probably uses a top score of 10,000 and 100 points per day and therefore cycles all of his cards in 100 days. Actually the time will be shorter, because it is unlikely that all his cards have reached the top score.

The settings depend very much on the goals you have. I thought you would like to do not too much testing with Pleco in order to have some time to do other things. Therefore - I thought - you intended to increase the maximum score above the Pleco maximum of 204,800. Now with the no. of cards per day formula you can choose how many cards per day you want to see on average. If you want to keep 100 points per day, you have to repeat
45,000 * 100 / 10,000 = 450 cards per day if you keep the top score at 10,000, and
45,000 * 100 / 204,800 = 22 cards per day if you increase the top score to the Pleco limit of 204,800.
Therefore my impression is that Pleco's top score of 204,800 is not a real problem. If you still want to test less cards per day, you can reduce the points per day e.g. to 20 and repeat
45,000 * 20 / 204,800 = 4,4 cards per day giving you plenty of time to do other things :D, but you see your cards only after 10,240 days = more than 28 years :?

Top score and points per day can both be used to change the results in the formulas above. E.g. a top score of 10,000 and 20 points per day lead to the same result of 500 days until next test as would a top score of 50,000 and 100 points per day. If you already decided on your daily workload (cards per day), you can set
top score = no. of cards * points per day / no. of cards per day (with points per day fixed) or
points per day = no. of cards per day * top score / no. of cards (with top score fixed)
 
Top