Google Android
- Thread starter westmeadboy
- Start date
radioman
状元
Yeah, I referenced the Random House definition in the previous post. And Irrespective of whether or not Apple is innovative or not, my commentary about the value chain and it being "innovative" was less about really cool new ways to do things, and more about sarcastically stating that, yes, other competitors surely have a tough time getting anything right... Sarcasm, New Jersey's leading "Innovation..." 
gato:
90% perspiration
Anyway, I agree with sui.generis - Apple simply did not make some extremely stupid mistakes other companies made [and still do]. There is nothing innovative about their products, most of them are just worse than what you can buy from other companies. And much more expensive. But for some reasons it is common thing in business - to be totally blind and ignore market needs. I am sure that everyone dealt with lots of companies that would prefer we did not exist and never bought/wanted to buy their products.
90% perspiration
Anyway, I agree with sui.generis - Apple simply did not make some extremely stupid mistakes other companies made [and still do]. There is nothing innovative about their products, most of them are just worse than what you can buy from other companies. And much more expensive. But for some reasons it is common thing in business - to be totally blind and ignore market needs. I am sure that everyone dealt with lots of companies that would prefer we did not exist and never bought/wanted to buy their products.
sui.generis
探花
radioman said:
If I knew what the heck that meant (sounds like a description Dilbert's pointy haired boss would insist on churning out), I suspect I'd be able to point to someone else who did it first. Someone else could probably point out someone else who did that first. It's not an insult, in my way of thinking, to say that a company isn't innovative. There's just not that much that hasn't been done. A smart company is going to take a system that's worked before and import it to a slightly different context rather than reinventing the wheel all the time. They'll also let other companies go first and learn from their mistakes.
Apple is definitely smart. But innovative? Meh. As much as their competition, sure. No more.
Apple is very very good at looking at new technology coming down the pipeline and figuring out how to turn it into something that consumers want; the iPhone was probably the biggest example of this in their history, they seized on the potential of capacitive-screen smartphones just a bit before anybody else did, but they do it in all sorts of product lines; the new MacBook Air is going to convince every other laptop manufacturer to start designing machines around on-board flash storage instead of around standard-hard-drive-bays-into-which-one-might-insert-an-SSD, just like the iPod Nano hastened the move towards flash-based MP3 players. They also execute amazingly well, the occasional Antennagate notwithstanding - only now at the end of 2010 are we starting to see other touchscreen keyboards rival what the iPhone had in 2008.
(I won't even talk about my frustrations using an HTC Desire as my primary smartphone for the last 2 months after 2+ years of using an iPhone, since that's just going to turn into a 3-page Android-versus-iPhone pissing match of the sort we've already had a couple of in this thread - suffice it to say that my previously not-very-well-informed anti-Android stance is now extremely well-informed and no less strongly felt, though waiting weeks and weeks to get Pleco OCR out due to the iTunes review process is making me hope Google pulls a rabbit out of their hats for 3.0)
Anyway, I don't know whether to call what Apple does "innovative" or not, but it's a form of "innovation" that's close to my heart since it feels very similar to what's made Pleco successful - taking a bunch of cool new inventions from elsewhere (handwriting input, 200,000-entry dictionaries, high-speed Chinese OCR), combining them into a polished, generally-well-executed product and charging whatever we have to to make that come together.
(I won't even talk about my frustrations using an HTC Desire as my primary smartphone for the last 2 months after 2+ years of using an iPhone, since that's just going to turn into a 3-page Android-versus-iPhone pissing match of the sort we've already had a couple of in this thread - suffice it to say that my previously not-very-well-informed anti-Android stance is now extremely well-informed and no less strongly felt, though waiting weeks and weeks to get Pleco OCR out due to the iTunes review process is making me hope Google pulls a rabbit out of their hats for 3.0)
Anyway, I don't know whether to call what Apple does "innovative" or not, but it's a form of "innovation" that's close to my heart since it feels very similar to what's made Pleco successful - taking a bunch of cool new inventions from elsewhere (handwriting input, 200,000-entry dictionaries, high-speed Chinese OCR), combining them into a polished, generally-well-executed product and charging whatever we have to to make that come together.
westmeadboy
榜眼
It was the same for me (but the other way around) when I finally got an iPod Touch. I think I'm now reasonably well informed about iOS, at least to the extent that I know I hate itmikelove said:
Android and iOS do things very differently. Once you get used to one platform then it can be really hard to deal with the limitations of the other. It's a bit like western toilets vs squat toilets (although maybe Steve Jobs will tell you you're not sitting on it right) - haha!
Anyway, one thing I hope we can all agree on - iTunes for Windows is one of the worst pieces of software ever.
Mike - why are you using an HTC Desire as your primary smartphone? Seriously, start another thread about your frustrations - could be fun
westmeadboy said:
True, though squat toilet advocates do have overwhelming medical evidence on their side. (not quite sure what I'm trying to say with that)
westmeadboy said:
Eclipse on Mac at least is pretty terrible too... not exactly making life easy for platform-hopping developers.
westmeadboy said:
Needed an unlocked GSM one for my travels and I needed the iPhone to keep its US SIM active at the same time. I could fill a page on the subject of text selection and the Back button alone...
westmeadboy
榜眼
To all you Android-haters out there who follow this topic:
http://www.pcworld.com/article/207485/b ... _1100.html
http://www.pcworld.com/article/207485/b ... _1100.html
Wow, really? Y'know, I used to think iOS was vastly superior, but after seeing PC World put Android 2.2 #1 in its top products list... well I guess that settles it, Android must be better, the magazine said so.
Oh well, we can just pack in the whole iOS development operation and undergo company-wide lobotomies in order to make ourselves enjoy programming in Java...
Oh well, we can just pack in the whole iOS development operation and undergo company-wide lobotomies in order to make ourselves enjoy programming in Java...
sui.generis
探花
mikelove said:
Heh. Yup. Lobotomies are the only available response to that magazine feature.
I only wish it were possible to evince slightly less hostility to the platform and its users in recognition of clearly evolving product evidencing ever wider and wider market enthusiasm (I hear even this one hold-out mobile Chinese dictionary company is getting on board!) instead.
In other news, HTC just intro'd my ideal android hardware -- 5 line keyboard with offset key spacing, great layout, what appears to be good tactile feedback and a tilting screen with modern guts. Unfortunately, they put WP7 inside. :roll: The TP3 is now called the 7 Pro. They'll get it right eventually.
character said:
Juggling two different filesystems is less-than-ideal, though I guess this is worth exploring at least... we could also just run the Windows version in Parallels I suppose.
sui.generis said:
I hope it comes of as more directed at the platform than the users...
I can't make myself like it tech-wise, but even if I still loathe it myself, I'm coming around to liking the fact that so many of you people (for whatever unfathomable reason) like Android. I like the idea of once again having a lot of our income come from our own online store rather than showing up via Apple a month-and-a-half later and 30% smaller, I like the idea of being able to release updates and new features and open public betas whenever we feel like it, I like being able to hand out coupons and bundle upgrade discounts and directly issue refunds, I like the possibility of getting back some of the hardcore SRS nerds who are the main reason why our flashcard system is so darn complicated / interesting / feature-rich but who seem to have largely vanished now that we're no longer doing that much development on Windows Mobile... the slightly-less-than-a-year since our first iPhone release has been a period of great success business-wise, but there are some parts of the old, pre-iPhone Pleco I definitely do miss and I'm hoping Android might help bring them back.
Unless WP7 wins, in which case this whole enormous thread is going to turn into something of an epic tragedy...
But with Google reportedly taking away manufacturers' ability to re-skin Android in 3.0, HTC's may no longer be able to use anything but hardware as a competitive advantage on either OS, and if the margins turn out to be higher on WP7 (royalties notwithstanding, there's a lot more price pressure with Android since any random electronics maker can start churning out Android devices on a whim) they may start releasing their premium hardware on WP7 first and adapting it for Android later... we saw this transition from WM to Android before, even as late as the HD2 they were still releasing better hardware for WM and then after that they finally started putting Android first.
character
状元
It's a little annoying to do, but you can map a directory which both systems can use. I wouldn't map the workspace directory and try to share it between two different Eclipse installs, though.mikelove said:
The man complains about Android but jumps at the chance to run Windows. :wink:
character said:
I still prefer Windows over Mac as a desktop OS - I like programming for Mac much better, I certainly get a lot of benefits out of having a Unix-style command prompt, and I've gotten used to Mac OS' quirks after spending so much time with it over the last 2 years, but are all sorts of areas where Windows' level of polish far exceeds that of OS X, all sorts of random performance challenges on Mac that don't exist on Windows... and Windows has much better international text support, a better range of text editors, better version of Office, better (now) version of Adobe Creative Suite... all sorts of good things for Pleco purposes.
Complaining about Android ought to equate with not wanting to use Linux as a desktop OS, and I don't - like Android I find Linux on desktops (even recent Ubuntu releases) a needlessly complicated mishmash compared to its more methodically-designed competitors. As a server OS Linux is unparalleled, but on desktops it still gets in my way far too often.
sui.generis
探花
mikelove said:
What do you mean "you people"?!
:wink:
This thread and all of mobile tech IMO. I just discovered an iphone app being ported to android that delivers a fuller OneNote Mobile experience than the actual OneNote mobile even dreams of. MS's new zuney management is everything I dislike about Apple without having Apple's redeeming qualities. OFFICE is your product, MS. :evil: Some crappy iPhone/droid 3rd party is going one up you with a $15 app (that I'd happily pay $30 for)? MS touts WP7's Office, but they tout invasive facebook integration and xbox live support more. I doubt their commitment to mobile office, especially since I bought my TP2 heavily influenced by reports that OneNote Mobile 2010 was going to be a full product and not a glorified notepad. And after the actual update it took me 20 minutes to find what changed -- nothing that made it closer resemble the wonderful product that is OneNote.
If they win, smartphones as I know and desire die. They have enough money to take a chunk of the market even with a completely undesirable product, and their facebook phone is bound to be attractive to a fair portion of the market even before they blow half a billion on marketing. I just hope there's still a place in the future of smartphones for all of us who spent the past decade helping to create the category.
That would be an unfortunate and odd choice. And frankly, how would they enforce it? One of Google's biggest problems is they can't make manufacturers do anything because anyone can use Android and rework it however they like (taking advantage of openness while simultaneously shutting users off from it). Is there a license change coming?
I'd welcome a license that made updating easier and forced manufacturers to release their coverups as optional apps, actually. But I'd rather not lose the ability to choose my interface. I actually grew quite attached to TealOS's wave bar (borrowed from WebOS) in the final years of my TX. I use SPB Mobile Shell now. I'd rather not lose the ability to bring the best of interfaces to whatever device I have at the moment.
sui.generis said:
Android fans, I suppose - I think in the modern sense "you people" suggests any group that has now become large and mainstream but that the speaker is making a futile attempt to treat like a fringe minority.
sui.generis said:
Having worked there myself (in the WM group, no less) I can say from personal experience that Microsoft is incredibly paranoid about the Windows/Office monopoly - they won't even allow their own office products for other platforms to compete with Office on Windows. I can't imagine even Microsoft Office on WP7 will ever be allowed to approach iWork / QuickOffice / DocsToGo features-wise; they absolutely do not want people doing real Office document editing on their low-royalty-rate mobile device, they don't mind you viewing / making small corrections to documents on-the-go but if you ask for a "real" version of Office for WP7 their response will be to laugh in your face and tell you to buy a netbook (running Windows 7 and Office 2010 and netting Microsoft an order of magnitude more money than your phone).
sui.generis said:
I think there'd still be a place for small mobile app developers, just as there's a place for small developers on Mac OS X and desktop Windows - there'll be more big companies fighting with us, of course, but they've been a factor way back since the golden days of Palm OS. But Android hater though I am, I'd certainly say an Apple-Google duopoly would be better for everyone than an Apple-Microsoft duopoly or, worse yet, a Microsoft monopoly akin to that on desktops. I'd be even happier if Apple shared the market with an open-source OS I don't dislike as much, though - MeeGo I continue to be excited about, it's open-source like Android but C-based like iPhone and Nokia's going to muscle it into a respectable market share position just as they have with Symbian.
sui.generis said:
They'll enforce it the same way they've blocked a lot of pre-3.0 Android tablets - by withholding Google app / Android Market access. It's been posted on a few Android blogs, anyway, and it makes logical sense that they'd at least force these skins to be more modular / removable so that there's less of a delay in getting everyone on the latest OS. Open-source flexibility may be the biggest thing distinguishing Android from iOS/WP7, but if it's not managed carefully it can really make developers' and users' lives difficult.