westmeadboy
榜眼
Of course, Android also supports VPN out of the box.
Google Android
- Thread starter westmeadboy
- Start date
Android's market share in China might increase with Google's departure, but it becomes even less likely that Chinese Android will remain compatible with Worldwide Android - much more likely that one or more Chinese software companies (or phone manufacturers) will come up with their own custom Android forks supporting various new features that Google hasn't seen fit to include but breaking API compatibility in the process.
It will probably remain friendly to unsigned applications, since otherwise people can't pirate them (or at least have to jump through hoops to do so), but without Google having a presence in China there's nobody to even try to rein in fragmentation. And they lose relatively little by making Chinese Android incompatible with Worldwide Android, since most of the applications Chinese users are interested in running are primarily / exclusively made for the Chinese market anyway.
Most iPhones in China can likewise run unsigned apps, and in the very unlikely event App Store were blocked in China we could just start distributing an alternate version of Pleco through Cydia. And still have much less to worry about compatibility-wise than we would in a market shared by Tencent Android / Red Flag Android / etc.
It will probably remain friendly to unsigned applications, since otherwise people can't pirate them (or at least have to jump through hoops to do so), but without Google having a presence in China there's nobody to even try to rein in fragmentation. And they lose relatively little by making Chinese Android incompatible with Worldwide Android, since most of the applications Chinese users are interested in running are primarily / exclusively made for the Chinese market anyway.
Most iPhones in China can likewise run unsigned apps, and in the very unlikely event App Store were blocked in China we could just start distributing an alternate version of Pleco through Cydia. And still have much less to worry about compatibility-wise than we would in a market shared by Tencent Android / Red Flag Android / etc.
Mike--Aha! I am now the owner of a Chinese Android sorta-clone. It's a DreamG2, which is neither a dream nor a G2 phone. Basically, they pirated some UI features of Android, but the OS is something else. (Why would someone pirate an open system?) You can't run Android apps on this thin, nor could you install them even if you could run them. Other the other hand, it cost me $100 and it works fine--even easily--as a plain-old cell phone. Can't say that of my last few HTC WM models. On the other other hand, I didn't need to go to China and buy a Chinese brand for a cheap phone. There are plenty of those at stores a few blocks away.
radioman
状元
The best fake iPhone fake I saw to date was relatively impressive. It pretty much looked like an iPhone (no, really...), Screen size, buttons, writing on back, etc., only 1200RMB. The software was obviously not iPhone. But it was interesting to see that it did in fact run Java apps.
westmeadboy
榜眼
I was just looking up the iPhoney term:
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=iPhoney
and had to chuckle at number 4.
Sent from my Android
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=iPhoney
and had to chuckle at number 4.
Sent from my Android
sui.generis
探花
Re: Google Android fragmentation
http://www.engadget.com/2010/03/29/exclusive-android-froyo-to-take-a-serious-shot-at-stemming-plat/
Just an update.
http://www.engadget.com/2010/03/29/exclusive-android-froyo-to-take-a-serious-shot-at-stemming-plat/
Just an update.
Well we'll see if that works out for them. In some markets like China, though, I don't know that Google apps are necessarily going to be that big a selling point by themselves, and carrier relationships with Yahoo or Microsoft may mean that some Android phones cheerfully bury the Google stuff. But perhaps they can at least get everybody running something like the same OS version for a while.
Per WSJ, Apple's finally getting ready to start making CDMA iPhones for Verizon:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB100...601774892.html?mod=WSJ_hpp_LEADNewsCollection
So one pro-Android argument (for US-based customers at least, who constitute a (small) majority of Pleco's user base) bites the dust. Verizon compatibility is I think the main reason why the Droid has done so well and the Nexus One hasn't, in spite of what everyone says about marketing campaigns etc - of course the Nexus is coming to Verizon very soon too, but now the Droid is so well established in the public's mind that it may have a tough time getting much traction. (and that screen resolution mini-scandal may hurt it too)
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB100...601774892.html?mod=WSJ_hpp_LEADNewsCollection
So one pro-Android argument (for US-based customers at least, who constitute a (small) majority of Pleco's user base) bites the dust. Verizon compatibility is I think the main reason why the Droid has done so well and the Nexus One hasn't, in spite of what everyone says about marketing campaigns etc - of course the Nexus is coming to Verizon very soon too, but now the Droid is so well established in the public's mind that it may have a tough time getting much traction. (and that screen resolution mini-scandal may hurt it too)
radioman
状元
With V Z W as an old employer, I can say that that this particular article addresses the possible (probable...) reality, that there very well could be no iPhone for Verizon. They have always wanted to keep control of the customer (dont all carriers??) which is why they passed on the iPhone previously. This article reflects the same.
Not that I is not possible. They continue to "evolve" with regard to the net (e.g., adding Skype to phones). And with 4G path via LTE, they will be more and more likely with Vodafone's overall market plans. But it would not surprise me if they do not climb on board the Apple train ... kinda like China Mobile to date.
http://www.thestreet.com/story/10713347 ... never.html
Not that I is not possible. They continue to "evolve" with regard to the net (e.g., adding Skype to phones). And with 4G path via LTE, they will be more and more likely with Vodafone's overall market plans. But it would not surprise me if they do not climb on board the Apple train ... kinda like China Mobile to date.
http://www.thestreet.com/story/10713347 ... never.html
I don't buy that - they're allowing Android Market, after all, at least for now. If Verizon won't carry the iPhone for lockdown-related reasons, we can expect the Droid II to only run apps purchased from Verizon Market. Android lines should pretty much even out between carriers in the next year or so - everyone will offer something Nexus-like and something Droid-like - and at that point the only hardware-related competitive advantage left to any US carrier would be iPhone, so if Apple's willing I don't think Verizon will say no.
radioman
状元
Well, We'll see. Today we sit with no VZW iPhone because they do not want to relinquish their business to the Apple model. Once they give in, it will be near impossible to sideline themselves from that playing field.
Some random comments:
LTE looks like it is targeted for a 700MHz launch this year for VZW. LTE will drop them in line with Vodafone's evolution plan. And VZW has traditionally gone full board to the enterprise users, doing the RIM thing, etc. LTE signals VZWs departure from the CDMA evolution path so perhaps there will be more of a lockstep "group" approach with Vodafone as the system launches this year, even for non-LTE related equipment.
This transcends much more than what cool hardware is out in the marketplace. But then again, didn't they just throw Bing into the game as the default search engine?
Some random comments:
LTE looks like it is targeted for a 700MHz launch this year for VZW. LTE will drop them in line with Vodafone's evolution plan. And VZW has traditionally gone full board to the enterprise users, doing the RIM thing, etc. LTE signals VZWs departure from the CDMA evolution path so perhaps there will be more of a lockstep "group" approach with Vodafone as the system launches this year, even for non-LTE related equipment.
This transcends much more than what cool hardware is out in the marketplace. But then again, didn't they just throw Bing into the game as the default search engine?
westmeadboy
榜眼
One thing I'm interested in, is the impact IMEs like Swype will have.
Here's a demo on a tablet device:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6spuyh3QPj8
Interestingly towards the end (5:55) they talk about supporting Chinese input.
Here's an interesting article talking about the decision by Apple to not include/allow it in the iPad:
http://www.enterpriseefficiency.com/aut ... _id=189527
Hurray for openness
Here's a demo on a tablet device:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6spuyh3QPj8
Interestingly towards the end (5:55) they talk about supporting Chinese input.
Here's an interesting article talking about the decision by Apple to not include/allow it in the iPad:
http://www.enterpriseefficiency.com/aut ... _id=189527
Hurray for openness
radioman - 4G phones initially aren't going to be anything most people want, though - they'll be clunky and have terrible battery life, just like the first 3G phones did, and only get coverage in a few areas. I suspect the reason for talk of a CDMA iPhone now is because Verizon's LTE rollout is taking so long that it's clear now Apple wouldn't be able to launch a practical LTE-only iPhone anytime soon.
westmeadboy - I don't see Swype or anything like it being successful for Chinese - even if it works, it's not noticeably faster than cursive Chinese handwriting, and with some major accuracy problems thanks to the fact that so many Pinyin initials / finals are adjacent to each other on a QWERTY keyboard; there's not nearly as much word shape variation as in English. How's it supposed to reliably tell the difference between tao, gao, bao, yao, hao, and nao for example? U/I are also problematic - ti for tu (and tu for ti) - and O/I - zui versus zuo. Contextual information is needed just to make a reasonable guess at the right character for the syllable entered, so expecting it to provide enough data to disambiguate syllables too is a bit of a stretch.
I don't quite see the point of Swype on a tablet, either, honestly - I guess as in the demo they can only use part of the screen, so that your finger can travel a shorter distance (though that means a lot of wasted screen space to the left / right of the IME pad), but it can't really provide any accuracy boost versus a full-width normal keyboard. The optimal tablet text input system hasn't been invented yet, but when it is I'm inclined to think it'll look more like a handwriting recognizer than like a keyboard. (Apple owns some nice technology in that area, actually) Possibly a fullscreen one (maybe with a two-fingered invocation gesture?) so you don't need to waste a huge amount of screen space on input or move your fingers halfway across the screen to enter text. Having tried Swype on phones at least I'm considerably less impressed than your commentator was, though maybe I just use a lot of unexpected words in unexpected places...
Plugin IMEs in general are only ever really going to be a competitive advantage in Asia - it'd certainly be nice to see them on iPhone (and according to published reports the iPad's OS adds support for both custom keyboards and custom UI controls taking IME input, so Apple's already put most of the infrastructure in there) but I doubt very many users not involved with Asian languages even know what an IME is, let alone can tell the difference between a good / bad one or would go to the trouble to find / install a replacement one that didn't ship on their phone.
westmeadboy - I don't see Swype or anything like it being successful for Chinese - even if it works, it's not noticeably faster than cursive Chinese handwriting, and with some major accuracy problems thanks to the fact that so many Pinyin initials / finals are adjacent to each other on a QWERTY keyboard; there's not nearly as much word shape variation as in English. How's it supposed to reliably tell the difference between tao, gao, bao, yao, hao, and nao for example? U/I are also problematic - ti for tu (and tu for ti) - and O/I - zui versus zuo. Contextual information is needed just to make a reasonable guess at the right character for the syllable entered, so expecting it to provide enough data to disambiguate syllables too is a bit of a stretch.
I don't quite see the point of Swype on a tablet, either, honestly - I guess as in the demo they can only use part of the screen, so that your finger can travel a shorter distance (though that means a lot of wasted screen space to the left / right of the IME pad), but it can't really provide any accuracy boost versus a full-width normal keyboard. The optimal tablet text input system hasn't been invented yet, but when it is I'm inclined to think it'll look more like a handwriting recognizer than like a keyboard. (Apple owns some nice technology in that area, actually) Possibly a fullscreen one (maybe with a two-fingered invocation gesture?) so you don't need to waste a huge amount of screen space on input or move your fingers halfway across the screen to enter text. Having tried Swype on phones at least I'm considerably less impressed than your commentator was, though maybe I just use a lot of unexpected words in unexpected places...
Plugin IMEs in general are only ever really going to be a competitive advantage in Asia - it'd certainly be nice to see them on iPhone (and according to published reports the iPad's OS adds support for both custom keyboards and custom UI controls taking IME input, so Apple's already put most of the infrastructure in there) but I doubt very many users not involved with Asian languages even know what an IME is, let alone can tell the difference between a good / bad one or would go to the trouble to find / install a replacement one that didn't ship on their phone.
westmeadboy
榜眼
Well, I can only go by the numerous accounts I've read from users that Swype is vastly superior to your bog-standard soft keyboard. Just trying it out on a couple of phones isn't really fair. I'd bet that the first time anyone uses a real keyboard they would have probably said it wasn't a good experience. The only reason people do take the time to learn how to use a real keyboard is because they know that its the main way almost everyone enters text.
I was teaching a friend of mine how to use predictive text (on bog-standard mobiles) the other day. She hated it initially, but (after some persuasion) persisted and now agrees its far superior.
My point wasn't specifically about Chinese input, but about how openness drives innovation. If everyone had iPhones would we ever see technology like Swype? Maybe, but certainly not as quickly as with an open environment.
You mentioned about unused spaces at the side of the IME as if thats a bad thing. You have the choice between:
1. Half-screen soft keyboard where words-per-min speed is significantly lower
2. Three times smaller soft keyboard where speed is much faster
Its not like you have to show big black squares there. Here are some ideas:
1. You can maybe make them transparent to show stuff on the screen beneath
2. you could show your dictionary results as you type (rather than being limited to using the space above the soft keyboard). Personally I'd love to be able to show the soft keyboard on the right hand side just below the field I'm editing. So it would be more like a popup dialog.
3. For a chinese IME, you could have a sketchpad area next to the keyboard to support both handwriting recognition and pinyin input
iPad's custom keyboards - isn't that the fragmentation you wanted to steer clear of?
Many users not involved with asian languages don't know what an IME is? Probably true of iPhone users because there is no possibility to change IMEs but I suspect most Android users are well aware - certainly judging by the number of downloads of alternate software keyboards in the Android Market.
I was teaching a friend of mine how to use predictive text (on bog-standard mobiles) the other day. She hated it initially, but (after some persuasion) persisted and now agrees its far superior.
My point wasn't specifically about Chinese input, but about how openness drives innovation. If everyone had iPhones would we ever see technology like Swype? Maybe, but certainly not as quickly as with an open environment.
You mentioned about unused spaces at the side of the IME as if thats a bad thing. You have the choice between:
1. Half-screen soft keyboard where words-per-min speed is significantly lower
2. Three times smaller soft keyboard where speed is much faster
Its not like you have to show big black squares there. Here are some ideas:
1. You can maybe make them transparent to show stuff on the screen beneath
2. you could show your dictionary results as you type (rather than being limited to using the space above the soft keyboard). Personally I'd love to be able to show the soft keyboard on the right hand side just below the field I'm editing. So it would be more like a popup dialog.
3. For a chinese IME, you could have a sketchpad area next to the keyboard to support both handwriting recognition and pinyin input
iPad's custom keyboards - isn't that the fragmentation you wanted to steer clear of?
Many users not involved with asian languages don't know what an IME is? Probably true of iPhone users because there is no possibility to change IMEs but I suspect most Android users are well aware - certainly judging by the number of downloads of alternate software keyboards in the Android Market.
There was a Swype-like keyboard for iPhone out within a few months after its launch, actually - it was just confined to writing notes inside of that one app and then forwarding them elsewhere. I think there are a couple of other keyboard apps like it now too, and it's also the way Nuance implemented voice recognition on iPhone.
Every platform has its limitations, but there are usually workarounds, and if some particular workaround proves popular on iPhone Apple very often notices and does something about it in the next update. One of the most prominent examples of that is In-App Purchase, before which the workaround was generally that you'd purchase a separate application which would then activate a particular feature in your original app - actually worked fine as long as you secured it properly (though I wouldn't rely on it for anything costing more than a few $), and it still seems to be the workaround used on Android (which at the moment lacks an equivalent system), but now there's a better solution built into the iPhone's OS.
Custom keyboards aren't fragmentation if they're implemented with a consistent API - if every iPhone OS 4.0 device supports custom keyboards and every custom keyboard communicates with my app using the same interface that Apple's does, that doesn't really create any more work for me.
Every platform has its limitations, but there are usually workarounds, and if some particular workaround proves popular on iPhone Apple very often notices and does something about it in the next update. One of the most prominent examples of that is In-App Purchase, before which the workaround was generally that you'd purchase a separate application which would then activate a particular feature in your original app - actually worked fine as long as you secured it properly (though I wouldn't rely on it for anything costing more than a few $), and it still seems to be the workaround used on Android (which at the moment lacks an equivalent system), but now there's a better solution built into the iPhone's OS.
Custom keyboards aren't fragmentation if they're implemented with a consistent API - if every iPhone OS 4.0 device supports custom keyboards and every custom keyboard communicates with my app using the same interface that Apple's does, that doesn't really create any more work for me.
westmeadboy
榜眼
Well, I don't know anyone else who would call a keyboard app an acceptable workaround for a properly integrated IME.
In-App purchase is indeed great to see on the AppStore and I really hope something like that comes to Android soon. Indeed, its a good example.
Copy-paste is a good counter-example. How many months/years of user-demands did that take?
Out of interest, Mike, what are the aspects of Android you would like to be able to utilise regarding Pleco? Or is it completely useless
In-App purchase is indeed great to see on the AppStore and I really hope something like that comes to Android soon. Indeed, its a good example.
Copy-paste is a good counter-example. How many months/years of user-demands did that take?
Out of interest, Mike, what are the aspects of Android you would like to be able to utilise regarding Pleco? Or is it completely useless
Pleco's gotten some mileage out of iPhone not supporting IMEs, actually - I doubt we'd be selling as many Fullscreen Handwriting Recognizer add-ons if you could buy the same thing in iTunes and use it system-wide. In fact it's arguably a strike against Android that we wouldn't have that source of revenue on it. Or In-App Purchase in general, but that's a non-issue as long as we stay out of Android Market, which would definitely be my preference - Android's a much better "backup OS" if we can distribute software on it however the heck we want, and the 30% (well, 27%, there are still credit card fees) we're not tithing to Google would help dull the sting of not being able to sell lots and lots and lots of handwriting recognizers. IME-ifying our recognizer wouldn't help, since the higher royalties we pay compared to Chinese companies mean someone else would inevitably knock off our design with the same recognition engine and charge 1/3 as much for it. (though I certainly still think we'll try to IME-ify if that becomes a possibility on iPhone, we're already committed either way at that point)
Instant Access has always been a huge hassle - it's a feature that's dependent enough on the quirks of each particular app (not to mention OS) that I can't really imagine it ever working well - so that's another Android thing I can't say I feel that much of a need for on iPhone. Multitasking by itself would be nice, though, there's only so much we can do about load times. And a shared document directory would definitely be a plus, though we've already worked around that pretty nicely.
But Android's too similar to iPhone to really offer any of the cool-new-stuff-we-can-do-now excitement that I had with that port (still ongoing); I get a lot more of that feeling out of iPad and the nifty things we can do with a larger screen. A Pleco Android port would be a thoroughly joyless affair, lots of tedious rewriting of code and very little new design or functionality, which I won't deny is a big part of why I'm so resistant to the idea. (Palm-to-WM was somewhere in between, the UI stayed the same but the vastly greater memory / CPU resources made it feel a lot less painful)
Instant Access has always been a huge hassle - it's a feature that's dependent enough on the quirks of each particular app (not to mention OS) that I can't really imagine it ever working well - so that's another Android thing I can't say I feel that much of a need for on iPhone. Multitasking by itself would be nice, though, there's only so much we can do about load times. And a shared document directory would definitely be a plus, though we've already worked around that pretty nicely.
But Android's too similar to iPhone to really offer any of the cool-new-stuff-we-can-do-now excitement that I had with that port (still ongoing); I get a lot more of that feeling out of iPad and the nifty things we can do with a larger screen. A Pleco Android port would be a thoroughly joyless affair, lots of tedious rewriting of code and very little new design or functionality, which I won't deny is a big part of why I'm so resistant to the idea. (Palm-to-WM was somewhere in between, the UI stayed the same but the vastly greater memory / CPU resources made it feel a lot less painful)
westmeadboy
榜眼
Ok, so you're effectively saying Android offers nothing over the iPhone and so there's no reason to port.
Personally, I would love to see a Pleco IME. In other words, the dictionary side of Pleco available to every text input field on every app on my device.
That's not possible on the iPhone right now but is easily possible on Android.
As you are writing an SMS/email you can quickly look up words as you type pinyin or sketch characters. Now that's a significant feature IMHO.
Personally, I would love to see a Pleco IME. In other words, the dictionary side of Pleco available to every text input field on every app on my device.
That's not possible on the iPhone right now but is easily possible on Android.
As you are writing an SMS/email you can quickly look up words as you type pinyin or sketch characters. Now that's a significant feature IMHO.