Feature suggestion for flashcards (multiple choice options)

Shun

状元
Philosophical asides like this one are worthwhile, so thanks for making it. :)

Caveat: Please read the following only if you're interested in the difficulties of bringing technology into harmony with the way humans use it. If you're happy with the way you're doing things now, perhaps it's better to skip what I've written here. :)

Certainly, I agree with you that technical knowledge and optimization can contribute to a successful studying session. Of course, I also have the desire to optimize that. But I think a stack of cards where you're just varying the intervals at which cards are repeated (longer if you knew them well, shorter if you didn't know them), is all the brain needs and can't really be improved on. The brain wants to repeat cards at increasingly long intervals until you don't need to anymore—like Anki does. The only other thing one should optimize is more long-term, if you're studying a large deck of 10'000 cards, say, how these cards are apportioned in digestible chunks until you know them all. But I think this is already too much configuration, i.e. it's removed from the reality of studying, since the source material you're studying on the side may not match the order in which Pleco is configured to introduce new cards from the stack. So the only thing you can do is to select cards manually, in stacks of 50, based on the needs of what you were going to read, and then study them with the stack of cards method described above.

I'd say a learner who has optimized their memorization through practice doesn't really care about many settings, they just want to see the cards at the right intervals, and that's all they need to learn them well. Everything else about the SRS seems more like a distraction to me. For example, depending on the difficulty of learning a particular set of cards, the "Learned" threshold should be higher if the cards were hard and lower if they were easy. But there is only one "Learned" threshold that you can configure for all cards. Some cards will then be gone too quickly, before you've learnt them well, and others will bore you by showing up too often. (There is also the Easiness of a card, but his can again be too rigid because Easiness can also change over time.) So already, the technology doesn't suit the needs of the user precisely anymore, or there's a big risk that it doesn't. My point being, any more complexity here is quite hard to bring into line with your subconscious needs.

Of course, there can still be individual variations in the optimal way of studying and other motivations involved. I could also imagine someone improving their settings just to be able to think their Pleco is "better configured" than someone else's—not everyone, just sometimes. (It's a temptation.) But if you think about it, when you remove all the other motivations besides studying well, you will probably end up with a pretty simple system.

About your original suggestion, to make the multiple choice harder by offering very similar, but incorrect words as possible solutions, I think it's pretty smart. But how, for example, can you keep the user from getting the impression that when they have four choices, two of which are very similar, that it had to be one of these two cards? So that wouldn't really work, would it? You could give four very similar choices, perhaps. But that would only teach detail knowledge, then. You could perhaps vary this with today's random way of presenting multiple choices and give two similar cards in a misleading way, by making them both wrong choices. My point being, also here, it can be quite tricky to bring technical gimmicks into line with what the user really needs.

I only advocate that one stay conscious of these needs and that it often isn't easy to figure them out and put them into a setting. It’s fine with me if Pleco offers “too many” settings. Those who want them get them, and those who don’t need most of them can ignore them.

Cheers,

Shun
 
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werewitt

Guest
Ahh you did go there!... I'll comment on a couple of your points then.

I'd venture a guess that a learner who has optimized their memorization through practice doesn't really care about many settings, they just want to see the cards at the right intervals, and that's all they need to learn them well.
SRS in language learning is a heavy-duty crutch, usefulness of which is sort of (but not really) supported by some sort of research, as I can gather from a Wikipedia article. It is a crutch to the "natural" spaced repetition achieved by reading texts. Reading is particularly difficult in Chinese because of the writing system, and takes quite a while to get into. I suspect this fact contributes to people's stronger preference to carding Chinese words, vs say when studying European languages (or languages closer to the ones they know). Plus a computer SRS usually has too many levers to pull (and Pleco's current version excels at that), which attracts aspie nerds like me :D

TBH (IIRC I've said this before) I'm currently trying to stop carding in favour of just reading, with the intermediate step being - flashcarding only the words I had to look up 3+ times when reading a text (and still did not remember!) A word has to be particularly tricky to end up in my study queue. I quit drilling pre-made lists, book word lists etc. An exception has been made for HSK lists before a test. And this seems to work quote well - for me. Gazillions of people learned languages before the SRS craze of the last 20 years, so I'm hoping to waddle through. I'm starting to think that SRS is a good crutch at beginning stages, maybe ~4k words, ~2k characters, but beyond that its usefulness suffers from a logarithmical increase speed. Or perhaps it's even asymptotic! :D

But how, for example, can you keep the user from getting the impression that when they have four choices, two of which are very similar, that it had to be one of these two cards? So that wouldn't really work, would it?
I cannot support my suggestion with peer-reviewed research, of course (can you support your statement on how useful it would have been if implemented? ;) ) But the first thing I'd say is that bisyllabic Mandarin words sharing one character are not "very similar". Usually they are not similar at all, depending on your definition of similarity. I dunno, 工作 vs 动作 (random words off the top of my head). I would imagine (again, purely a thought experiment) that unless "select words" is set to "session categories" and those are very small, the chance of words sharing one character being "very similar" is nil.
 

mikelove

皇帝
Staff member
Re SRS: the problem for us that we can't just go by what's actually backed by research; we also have to go by what people *think* will work. Long-term SRS, for example: the research seems pretty clear that long-term memory does not degrade in any kind of an exponential fashion that SRS might capture, but a whole lot of people *believe* it does, and so we have to offer the option for gradually increasing intervals even to the point of deciding that one word should be reviewed again in 200 days and another word in 220.

The current plan for the default 'Pleco SRS' (which we can change pretty late in the game since it's basically just a bunch of settings presets) is that it won't actually try to SRS long-term cards at all; we'll simply sprinkle some random cards from your long-term pool (that haven't been reviewed in a while) into every test. We're also currently leaning towards not attempting to apply some sort of easiness factor algorithm for shorter-term learning either, but simply have a progression of a few fixed intervals; abandoning the idea that every card is due at a precise time opens things up so that we can be a little more forgiving / sensible in scheduling and not hit you with too many cards on one day and too few on another.

But that, of course, will not work for some people - the notion that you learn better with an algorithm helping you is hard to get away from - so we'll also have a mode that very much resembles Anki and our current Spaced Repetition option, with precisely calculated intervals even for cards that you haven't seen in 200 days. (the core is sufficiently flexible that it can accommodate both of these, and everything else in our current system, in the same app, purely through different combinations of settings)
 

Shun

状元
Yeah, I think you’re both absolutely right. SRS is great, also Pleco’s plans. @werewitt, nice learning strategy. True, there are almost no “very similar” words in Chinese, except perhaps when you have phrases. Then you could switch something around. But then it’s very hard to make a computer-generated phrase which still could be right.

@Mike: I agree, it’s critical to go by customers’ intuition of what seems right to them.
 
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