Beta 4 Feedback Thread

ldolse

状元
Well that's reason enough to take back my comments on the stroke order functions then - provided it remembers one's settings it's good enough for me.
 

ipsi

状元
I can confirm tone colours not working in Guifan. I can also say that they don't work properly in the [] for the charset not currently in use (e.g. Traditional).

The 'big square sticks', hleperlier, are due to Pleco giving the peopl who provided them too strict a time limit. It may be fixed in the future.

Agreed on not really wanting to see Popup Definitions in Guifan if I'm already trying to look up a word in Guifan...
 

mikelove

皇帝
Staff member
TroiOi - are you sure that the stroke order / audio features are unlocked and usable on the rest of your system? If the data files are missing or those features haven't been purchased/unlocked yet then that would explain why they're not accessible in flashcards.

hleperlier - #1 is a known problem, just an issue with the data file (which is actually true with most of the dictionary-specific problems at this point). #2 as ipsi says is an issue with the source data - we're already working on a way to improve this and should hopefully have everything looking nice and similar by the time 2.1 comes out.

The issue with the handwriting palette raised in your #3 and in many other places is something we're still trying to figure out. I think a lot of the unhappiness with the way the new "input palette" works may simply be due to people's familiarity with the way it worked in 1.0. Which really wasn't that logically-designed; making the only way to move the palette to a different part of the screen require tap-holding on a toolbar button was just downright silly. The arrow button also seems rather confusing, based on my own sense of it and on the number of e-mails we've gotten from people who couldn't figure out how to access fullscreen handwriting in 1.0. The best approach might be to decouple the fullscreen handwriting bar from the "input palette" altogether and give it its own separate option and even its own separate toolbar button - perhaps even a floating one as in PenPower/CE-Star et al that only gets in the way when you're actually writing a character. That probably won't happen in 2.0 but at the very least we'll try to make it easier to configure/relocate in the next beta.

On #4/#5, other than the font size button which button are you not seeing that was present in 1.0? The radical/handwriting buttons were merged into Input but you can still use that to get to both functions. On #6, do you have 1.0.3 installed in internal memory while 2.0 is on an SD card? Once the power gets to that level the Palm OS automatically disables the SD card slot, Pleco should certainly exit more gracefully in that case but it shouldn't be possible to keep using the software in either version if the software is on the card and that card becomes inaccessible. #7 is a known issue introduced by a change we made for the sake of the document reader that appears to have accidentally crept into other parts of Pleco.

ldolse - on Character Info, we're planning to rearrange it for both portrait and landscape if we have time, but since it is at least usable in its current form this may get pushed to 2.1. There are a number of other fields that a lot of people find useful, Cantonese and Vietnamese for example, so once we get it to reliably remember your last field selections I think the current dropdowns make sense. Radical already is an option on the main Info screen, though at the moment it's confusingly labeled as RSUnicode instead of Radical. I'm not big on having multi-second sequences start until users specifically start them - accidentally hit the wrong tab and you're stuck waiting through an animation you didn't want to see. Slow is indeed a bit too fast on Windows Mobile, there's definitely room for tweaking on those speeds. Good catch on the word-wrapping, not sure what's going on there, and putting the code point in makes a lot of sense.

The tap-hold context menu is listed as an option under Stylus Actions and is definitely coming, we just didn't have time to get it coded for Beta 4. Character Info does have the habit of sometimes coming up when you highlight a single character - we're still doing some tweaking on that part of the text field code. Definition Tap is actually supposed to work that way, we wanted it to mimic the character magnifier invocation in 1.0 on Palm (which it now pretty much does) - there used to be a tap-on-selection option but nobody seemed to be using it so we took it out, the code's still there though so it's just a question of whether we can really live with ourselves for having 50 pages of what will easily be a 200-page instruction manual dedicated to nothing but explaining preferences screens :) Send To Reader has been widely requested and will probably even get its own toolbar button option. Good point on remembering the last dictionary, that would definitely make sense - the only problem is that it still might fall back on (and therefore end up defaulting to) the Guifan dictionary, so perhaps we could use the new "Include in Reader" checkbox we're adding on the dictionary manager screen to control whether or not dictionaries are accessible in the popup window as well - seems like it makes more sense to use the reader setting than the one from the main dictionary.

The Pinyin bug you mention seems to be another data file issue - is 今天 linked to a Guifan dictionary entry by any chance? The code for directing newly-imported entries to the user dictionary instead of to flashcards is already there, we just ran out of space on the Import screen for it - it'll probably end up as yet another new preferences checkbox. It's unlikely we'll add a user dictionary exporter before 2.1/2.2/etc, but since the database is now in SQLite you can dump it to text yourself using a free utility like SQLite Database Browser. As far as putting flashcards or user dictionaries on a storage card, I'm hesitant to do anything to encourage this, since even though SQLite is a lot more corruption-proof than the old system Windows Mobile's habit of spontaneously disabling access to flash memory cards still makes me nervous - moving the database to the card yourself should continue to work, and be a good bit more stable than it was before, but it's unlikely we'll make this an official option unless and until Microsoft revamps the Windows Mobile file system to stop blowing up file handles every time the system goes to sleep.

ipsi - tone colors seem to work fine in [] brackets here - are you sure this is happening in every dictionary?
 

TroiOi

秀才
mikelove said:
TroiOi - are you sure that the stroke order / audio features are unlocked and usable on the rest of your system? If the data files are missing or those features haven't been purchased/unlocked yet then that would explain why they're not accessible in flashcards.
Hi Mike,

I'm sure that the stroke order works in character info| Stroke order tab. And each time I click on the speaker, it does pronounce the word look up. However, none of them work in flashcard mode. I don't know why.
 

daniu

榜眼
HI!

I am pretty sure that this is a small issue ... but ... since PD2B4 I cannot even start PD2 when PD1 is already running (trying to - simply does nothing) ... That makes it pretty much useless to me and I am very likely not going to test much at all.

regards
Daniel
 

ldolse

状元
Daniu,

While that is a bug, you can work around it by starting PD2 first, then PD1 - they work fine if you do it in that order.
 

sfrrr

状元
Why do you need to have both running at thew same time? I ask because you guys may have a technique I've not thought of.

Sandra
 

ldolse

状元
mikelove said:
Radical already is an option on the main Info screen, though at the moment it's confusingly labeled as RSUnicode instead of Radical.
My problem with that is RsUnicode requires you to have the Kangxi radical numbers memorized, I consider that number more of an alternate method of indexing. The actual radical would be preferable to this.

mikelove said:
there used to be a tap-on-selection option but nobody seemed to be using it so we took it out, the code's still there though so it's just a question of whether we can really live with ourselves for having 50 pages of what will easily be a 200-page instruction manual dedicated to nothing but explaining preferences screens :)
Tap on selection wasn't very critical in 1.0 when the only actions you had were magnify and copy to input field. Since 2.0 has added a bunch of other things that can be done I think it becomes more important. Especially considering Tap and Hold is already an interface default of windows mobile for context menu. Just using a single tap isn't sufficient for multi-character definitions. But seeing as there are five or six things you may want do with highlighted text it doesn't make sense to immediately do one thing every time just by highlighting. I think single tap on highlighted text for pop-up and tap and hold highlighted for a context menu is very elegant, and also falls within the existing windows mobile interface guidelines.

Regarding docs and preferences, I'll grant you've created a bit of a monster here with the customizability you allow for Pleco, and I can tell by the forums that everyone has their own pet methods of using it, but I for one won't complain if the docs aren't completely detailed or delayed a bit.

I think I also found a bug in this department - I set pop up dict to both tap AND tap and hold to try to at least make it quick to bring up for single characters. Unfortunately it seems like tap doesn't work with that setting, only tap and hold works. There was also some weird behaviour with wrapped text. I would click on the last character in a line, and it would often popup the first character from the next line - nowhere near the pointer.

mikelove said:
As far as putting flashcards or user dictionaries on a storage card, I'm hesitant to do anything to encourage this, since even though SQLite is a lot more corruption-proof than the old system Windows Mobile's habit of spontaneously disabling access to flash memory cards still makes me nervous - moving the database to the card yourself should continue to work, and be a good bit more stable than it was before, but it's unlikely we'll make this an official option unless and until Microsoft revamps the Windows Mobile file system to stop blowing up file handles every time the system goes to sleep.
I'll try moving it manually and see what happens. My problem with this is just that so far I've lost my flashcards several times because of them being in semi-volatile device memory. Many other applications I have keep everything on SD card without a problem, and surviving resets and device changes is trivial. If there was some activesync plugin or the discussed pleco desktop to automatically back up the flashcards to the desktop this would be less of an issue, but that's a ways off.

sfrr said:
Why do you need to have both running at thew same time? I ask because you guys may have a technique I've not thought of.
Mostly just to compare the two for myself. I think some people still use 1.0 as their default dict, and leave it running all the time, so 2.0 won't start.
 

ipsi

状元
On the highlighting not working in brackets: Open it up, switch to the ABC dictionary, and go to the entry for a1yo. The default settings have RED for 1st tone and GREY for 5th. That's correct for the simplified characters, but it displays the traditional form of the second 'yo' character (can't write Chinese at work...) in RED, in the [].
 

daniu

榜眼
sfrrr said:
Why do you need to have both running at thew same time? I ask because you guys may have a technique I've not thought of.

Sandra

Hi!

Because I want to use the features of PD2 while reviewing my flashcards. When I look at flashcards I often feel like: how to write that character? That simple :)

Starting PD2 first always ... still quite inconvenient. Due to the Axim and running both programs from CF they crash pretty often. Restarting one program and when needed the other is ok - always first starting pd2 is ... a hassle

regards
Daniel
 

mikelove

皇帝
Staff member
ldolse - didn't realize that RSUnicode was still only showing numbers - this should be very easy to fix. I'm a bit concerned that allowing both tap-on-selection and tap-hold might get confusing, particularly since tap-hold can then bring up a menu offering even more options, but I imagine anyone who's easily confused by computer software is going to give up after the first page or two of preferences anyway - being hyper-customizable has gotten us this far, at some point we'll have to introduce a simplified-interface version of Pleco (this would probably premiere with the still-hypothetical iPhone version, since we need to trim a lot of things down from the current stylus-driven interface anyway) but until then I suppose another page or two of preferences isn't that bad.

The tapping-on-end-of-line bug has already been fixed in our development builds - it was also the reason why tapping on the first half of the first character in a line wouldn't work correctly. In the meantime if you make sure to tap as close to the left edge of those characters as you can they should still come up correctly. With the flashcard backup issue, another way to handle that would be to use a backup utility like Sprite or Resco - this would also guard against file corruption and accidental card deletions, something which simply putting the file on a memory card wouldn't do. (though corruption will hopefully be a thing of the past with 2.0)

ipsi - I see what you mean now, it isn't handling those /s correctly - should be easy enough to fix.
 

ldolse

状元
Testing with the flashcards:
Note when I first tested this, many cards were corrupted, but many were also usable. The usable ones seemed to be tied to the ABC dictionary. I have ~170 cards in this list.

今天 - flashcard displayed as junīntian, in category 'incomplete cards'. When I went to edit the card it showed me this: jun5in5ting5ān5 - note the pinyin tone marks/accents, that's exactly how it shows up. It doesn't appear to be associated with any dictionary - all I see is the PinYin. The actual chinese characters seem to be correct in all cases - it's just the pinyin/definition that's screwed up/

Found a bug - I deleted my flashcards and User DB's files in mydocs to try and retest this bug, and Pleco failed to start after that. It didn't start until I deleted just about everything from the Pleco registry AND the card files that it finally started.

Once back in - I reimported the flashcards, but this time I removed Guifan and the user dictionary from the list using the remove button. This turned out even worse than before - looks like 100% of the cards imported incorrectly. Note I swapped dictionary order several times - different order created different garbage.
 

mikelove

皇帝
Staff member
The importer still doesn't like tone marks very much - are your flashcards using those or tone numbers? If the former, try it out with the latter and it should work more reliably - the ā showing up in that 今天 definitely suggests a tone-mark-conversion-related problem, and just looking at the way it matched up it seems to have taken the last possible syllable starting with j (jun) and the last one starting with ti (ting), suggesting that it's trying unsuccessfully to find those tone marked characters in its list of known Pinyin syllables. You could also try just importing the list of characters without any Pinyin at all. And this list is in UTF-8, right?

With the deleted files, are you sure PlecoDict was exited/unloaded before you deleted them? SQLite doesn't always leave files it's using open when it's not currently in the process of accessing them, so it's now possible to delete a file when the software is still running.
 

ipsi

状元
It's more a case of it's not handling -'s correctly, and possibly /'s as well. See da4xue2 for a good example :). xue2 should be green, but it's purple.
 

ldolse

状元
Regarding not starting, I did exit from Pleco first. Then I deleted both user dictionaries there as well as the flashcard file. After that Pleco won't restart until I go and delete most of the registry keys - not sure which key is causing the problem. Which key actually contains the license? I thought it was the RegistrationVersion key, not so sure now. I think some of my subsequent problems were that Pleco switched to Demo mode and I wasn't aware of it.

Regarding tone marks, I am using UTF-8, correct. I just looked at the file, the pinyin is using tone marks and not numbers. I'm surprised I did that, but maybe I thought that was a 1.0 requirement.... Once I get the software licensed again I can verify it works with numbers.

-edit-
I verified it works with numbers - the behaviour is a bit strange if you load the flashcards while in demo mode. The search card function shows the cards as if they're incomplete - character only, no pinyin. After Licensing the continue to show this way until you manually edit the card, then pinyin shows up in the list for that specific card.
 

mikelove

皇帝
Staff member
It should just be called Registration, not RegistrationVersion (though deleting that would probably also cause it to re-generate Registration). We should probably stop storing this stuff in the registry, it would be much easier on everyone if we just had a nice little "Pleco Preferences" file in the main application folder.

The old version exporter didn't correctly convert tone marks to numbers in UTF-8 exports, so that's probably why that file had numbers in it. Glad to hear that cleared it up at least. The importer shouldn't even be accessible in demo mode; the software has no way to decode DEMO entries, and hence no way to verify that the Pinyin matches, so the Import button will likely be hidden/inaccessible in the finished demo version (as it is in 1.0).

Tentative decision on the fullscreen handwriting front: we're going back to the old grow/shrink button approach, which is still better than anything else we could come up with. Probably with a redesigned icon, but as in 1.0 there'll be a button you can tap to toggle between palette/fullscreen mode. Along with two new preferences settings, one which lets you show/hide the radical and keyboard buttons when it's in that minimized mode (for people who don't like having those take up space) and another (per ipsi) to prioritize the list over the fullscreen recognizer palette when possible (so if the two overlap the list gets the space instead of the recognizer). We're also adding new toolbar button options which will specifically bring up handwriting, radical input, and keyboard input, for people who've gotten used to the old approach and don't want to give it up; the input screen likely won't change (though we may add a legacy 1-character-at-a-time option in that too, at least for handwriting) but the buttons will automatically open it to the appropriate tab, or open the input palette to the appropriate mode. The generic input button will still be an option too, but this way nobody has to give up the 1.0 system if that's what they're comfortable with.
 

sfrrr

状元
Any possibility of a E to C or, maybe a C to C antonym dictionary? Or am I the only one who would make good use of such a thing?

Sandras
 

mikelove

皇帝
Staff member
Maybe, but we're a ways away from another round of licenses - have to see how the current ones shake out first.
 

ldolse

状元
Flashcard feedback

Well, now that I've gotten import working I could really play around with the flashcards, so here's more feedback. There are a still a lot of bugs in the flashcards, for the most part I'm ignoring those here.

Importing
Didn't realize tone marks was a bug in the 1.0 exporter - anyway, I originally followed the exported formatting, hence the reason I was using tone marks. I converted everything to numbers, but there were still some failures.
  • The importer is not forgiving of a space after the chinese characters in the headword column. I just verified with a 1.0 export - this space is being inserted by the 1.0 export routine. The hanzi will go in, as will the Pinyin, but the dictionary lookup doesn't happen, so it's marked as incomplete. What's interesting is if I manually edit the card and change it from 'custom entry' to 'dictionary' it automatically does a lookup and you can then save a good card.
  • doesn't seem to handle 1.0 headword conventions like: 今(儿) or 水饺(儿)
  • I got some random failures on some entries, but there wasn't any rhyme or reason to this - lines which failed one go round succeeded the next, and others failed.
  • It would be great if the import told you some stats after it finished - errors, skipped, added to incomplete category. Right now it only shows you the number of entries processed.


Manage Flashcards
  • There's no copy and paste capabilities from anywhere in the manage flashcards interface. The previously discussed context menu would be useful here as well.
  • I don't see a way to change the category of a single card in the search results when you go to edit the card. A good solution might be under 'more commands' - there could be a 3rd item in the 'apply changes to' dropdown, and that could be 'currently selected card'.
  • For entering search terms I'd really really prefer this to be a proper text box where I can use the built in IME's and keyboards. Having to go to the input panels to attempt to input search terms is really cumbersome, and I think it caused me a problem at one point, though I can't remember right now.

Writing Test
  • This test is pretty much perfect in and of itself, but it does lead to some feedback on how other pieces of the UI interact with it (more beating on character info, sorry).
  • Definitely not something I want to see in 2.0, but flipping constantly between character info stroke order and the writing flashcard test makes it painfully obvious to me that a dedicated writing review panel that includes stroke order playback and a HWR recognizer in a single panel would be awesome :)
  • It's a nice touch that you can only bring up character info after your answer. The problem is character info doesn't have an ok button. When you click on where the ok button should be it does give focus back to the test, but the window doesn't close. When the test is finished I have 20-30 Character info windows open, which then have an ok button.
  • Character info only comes up after clicking on a nonhighlighted character. After clicking on it once it becomes highlighted. Once highlighted you have to unhighlight it before clicking on it again, not a big deal but a bit inconvenient as I find myself swapping between the two a lot as I review the stroke order and map how that matches the HWR.
  • Character info has a right handed interface, and I'm a lefty, so the stylus is always blocking the view as I run through the controls. Having the controls along the bottom like beta 3 would keep it right/left agnostic. I think that makes more sense than two versions of the dialog - I use and prefer the right handed view for everything else. I tried the lefty preference; didn't like it, didn't affect Char info anyway.
  • Some dictionaries have the headword repeated in the entry text - be nice if it filtered that out - not something I really expect it to do, but nice to have.

Automatically scored Pinyin test:
  • The pinyin keyboard used in the flashcards is in sore need of backspace button - the other pinyin keyboards in Pleco have this, so not sure why it's missing here.
  • I'd prefer if it asks for confirmation when finished typing in the pinyin - right now as soon as you type a tone number your screwed if there was a typo you didn't notice - same thing that you do for multiple choice would be good.

Multiple Choice:
  • I like the confirm dialog that pops up, and it seems this pops up 100% of the time for right answers, but it randomly doesn't pop up for wrong answers.
  • Can't scroll the long dictionary entries in the confirm dialog - this would be nice as many entries are so wordy you can't be sure it's correct. Maybe once cedict and adso are back we can force multiple choice to use those dicts though...


Other points
When you end a test it's possible to lose focus on the query box regarding saving the session. If you do that it just gets lost behind the other open windows.

In general I'd just like to use a built in IME to enter standard text (even chinese if an IME is installed) throughout the UI, but that's just my preference - what was the driver behind creating a soft keyboard within Pleco, just out of curiousity?
 

ldolse

状元
I just reread your post about the settings to allow things to go back to more 1.0 style input - for the main search dialog I definitely prefer the new 2.0 methodology that's been in the last couple betas - I'm surprised people want to go back to one character at a time like 1.0. No problem though as long as it's not default.

That did remind me though of a input option that 2.0 is missing - when I hand this to a Chinese person to write in text they expect the recognizer to automatically recognize and select the first match, as this is what any of their HWR's do. They're always a bit confused by the concept of clicking the recognize button and selecting a match. I think the current defaults are perfect for the average student, but it might be nice to have an auto recognize/select checkbox on there for when you hand the phone over to a native.
 
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