Words sometimes invisible

shiki

进士
Sometimes in a pop-up when using the screen reader, words with links will not be visible. Sometimes they show up again if I close the popup and redo the ocr and reopen the popup but sometimes they just don't. I've just mainly noticed this with the LAC and MOE dictionaries but that could be because I use them so much, might be happening with others too.

As I was getting the screenshots for this post I closed the pop-up and that made the missing instance with LAC pop-up go away so I don't have it missing but it happens with it too.
 

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mikelove

皇帝
Staff member
We normally hide 'see also' type links in the popup bubble when the dictionary is correctly tagged with them, just as with example sentences. LAC/MOE are not totally reliable about tagging those, which might explain the inconsistency, but at any rate the discrepancy in the first two screenshots seems to be Pleco behaving as intended.
 

shiki

进士
It was definitely invisible on LAC, I don't have the screenshot to prove it to you because like I explained, it went away, fixed itself, when I reopened the popup. I'm pretty sure it's a bug.

Why would see also links be hidden..? They're not long at all..
 

mikelove

皇帝
Staff member
Sorry about that. If you catch it again then send us a screenshot with the bit that's missing and we can check the original entry and hopefully get to the bottom of why that particular bit was vanishing or not.

As far as why we don't show them: again we're trying to reduce clutter, we want the bubble to pull you away from the text for as little time as possible so that you don't lose your place. If we eventually figure out a way to use AI to cull down the meaning in the bubble to just the correct one for that context then we would probably default to that and not even show other definitions. I recognize that that's maybe not the way that you specifically are using it, and as I said in my other post we're open to adding a 'don't hide anything' option, but as far as explaining why we do this philosophically, that's why - the popup bubble is supposed to spend as little time on your screen as possible.
 

shiki

进士
I understand your point and I agree it's not great to spend much time in the popup. It just feels to me like see also, which are like variants, are part of the definition. Since you say you don't want it to pull you away from the text, my concern is that opening up the main app just to see that short piece of useful info, is pulling you way more away from the text than the popup would've done had it been just there at the end of the definition. But if you're response is well just don't open up the main definition screen, then I guess I'll never see that info..

But I want to ask you this, are the see also sections very long? I haven't seen any long but I'm curious if there's any that would actually be considered clutter.

I guess it's a difference in philosophy. For me I think variants and examples are just as important as the definition itself (well maybe not the variants but it doesn't hurt to have them there lol). I just don't think you can effectively acquire the words meaning and nuance with just bilingual dictionaries. Those are like language equivalents and often don't capture the depth of the words, which is why the extra info can help tremendously. I know people can and do kinda learn the language through faulty or shallow understandings of the meaning of words but I also think it's often obvious when they speak or try to define words, you find their understanding of words is not good at all like they thought because of the plain and short bilingual definitions lol. If I had to describe this approach I'd call it the quick and dirty method. I know it can be attractive, but I just think you need to use at least a bit of your brain to properly map out the nuances of word meanings. (See examples, maybe compare with variants or similar words etc)

I'm asking for a way that help learn the language in a more well rounded way, just my opinion.
 

mikelove

皇帝
Staff member
I guess I wouldn't see them as part of the definition in this specific context, namely, quickly filling you in on this word you don't know in order to let you carry on with reading. If you can't understand the meaning of the word without the 'see also' then we need to rewrite that definition to add whatever important information is missing, but in most cases 'see also' would be an interesting related word to compare/contrast with rather than something essential in understanding the meaning of the word.

We don't really see this part of Pleco as trying to help you acquire all of the nuance behind a word; if you want to do that then you can bookmark it for later review in flashcards. What we're doing here is, again, helping you understand it quickly and then carry on with reading. I don't think it's really feasible for most people to read through a text and take a long time to process every word they encounter that they don't know; frankly, if you're going to do it that way then there's a pretty good argument for reading whatever-it-is on paper and keying words in to the regular dictionary search screen with the handwriting recognizer instead, since that's going to do a better job of helping you to remember the characters than simply glancing at the definition would.

On top of this, though, encountering a new word repeatedly in a bunch of different contexts - something that's more likely to happen the more you read - is probably going to help you understand it better than even the most detailed dictionary definition; reading that quick definition will help you figure out how to slot it into whatever sentence it appears in, but you're still going to gain some additional nuance from that process of slotting-in, and the next time you encounter it you're going to gain even more.

Anyway, it seems clear we do have a philosophical difference on this, which is fine, and again this isn't a particularly difficult thing for us to make optional, but we've been approaching popup readers like this for almost two decades now, and while I'm always open to having my mind changed, since most of our customers seem content with our current approach it would take an awful lot to change it at this point.
 

shiki

进士
Ok here it clearly happened. And again, it starts to show up only after I've opened up the full app so that might help find the bug
 

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