Is the Palm OS dead? (no flames, please. This is serious.)

[sfrrr]

Guys, for those of you who use your Palm OS devices for other chores besides PlecoDict, Ed Hansberry (an incredibly knowledgable PPC writer) writes a lot, a lot for Pocket Thoughts and has as real soft spot for Palms. In this article http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=353366&sid=28dd32446d24a49a382e2f344468eedc, he deduces that PalmSource is killing off the Palm OS we know and is developing only for the Linux platform and feature phones. Palm will continue to produce the hardware but who knows what operating systems it will run.

So, Mike, get back to work this second :wink: on the PPC version. It won't come a minute too soon.

Sandra

 

[mikelove]

Well I agree that PalmSource seems to be moving away from standalone Cobalt, but Palm OS on Linux is really pretty similar in a lot of ways. The Palm OS won't disappear, it'll simply evolve into something in between an application framework and an emulator - like a version of StyleTap that works just as well as the "real" Palm OS. The differences between Palm OS for Linux and Palm OS Cobalt are mostly under-the-hood.

And actually, because the 68k processor architecture is old and easy-to-emulate, and because Palm OS applications for years have been written with the assumption that they would be run in an emulator, PalmSource has something bordering on their very own little version of Java or .NET - not nearly as flexible or powerful, of course, but it's out there, there are an awful lot of PDA applications that run on it, and there are an awful lot of developers that know how to write software for it.

So I don't think Palm OS necessarily is going to fade into obscurity - at the very least it's a launching-pad for smaller handset manufacturers (like the Chinese ones that are poised to start moving into the US market soon) to roll out devices that can compete with Nokia's and Microsoft's. PalmSource has made some mistakes, and they're never going to take over the handset OS market, but that doesn't necessarily mean that they're going to disappear, at least not until technological advances make the very concept of a PDA OS obsolete. (I actually think that that may be farther off than most people do - right around the time that handsets can run something like WinXP, applications will be coming out that really make good use of multi-core processors and indexed filesystems and the handsets will go right back to being behind again)

But we're certainly cranking away on PPC regardless, it's silly to leave Microsoft's share of the PDA market unexploited.

 

[goulniky]

I won't switch, for two reasons :
First, I've been using a Sony UX50 for 18 months now, and I find the form factor absolutely perfect, particularly now that it can be used landscape or portrait. The only similar device on the market is the Zaurus SL-C3100, but it has a harddisk and runs Linux - so until such time as PlecoDict gets ported to Linux, I won't get one.

Other reason is I did have an iPack for a while on top of a Palm, quite a few advantages such as a simpler / proper file system but I was so used to Palm I was often puzzled by the interface and behaviour (such as need to close applications). Since there's no reason to switch I stick to Palm for now, but then again I once went from Mac to PC with similar reservations and didn't turn back.

 

[palewar]

Palm is defenitely loosing ground

Well I am not saying that palm os is going to be dead any time soon but I will defenitely say that it has lost very critical ground and they will probably not able to make up for the time they lost when they changed their strategy and decided to build their linux version.

In the mean time there have been some really innovative devices have been launched running windows mobile and MS plans to release windows mobile 6 (code name photon) by 2007 and I am sure its going to be a lot user friendly and powerful than the current version.

Well these are just my thoughts and related posts from me can also be found at these links:

http://www.palewar.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?t=10
http://www.palewar.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?t=15

Regards,

Sachin

 

[Anonymous]

I think Palm is having a transition like Apple did when it went from OS9 to OS X. Like the new OS X, when it first came out, Palm's next new OS will have a lot of "delays". I think these delays will decide whether Palm next reincarnation will make it or not.

For developers I think it is important to have a seemless transition from programming for the present OS 5.4 etc to the new Cobalt ALP with minimum "re-learning".

From Access/PalmSource point of view I think it had no choice but to "merge" with Linux and concentrate on doing what it does best ( provide a User Interface).

China is the world's biggest mobile market and since the govt here categorically prefers OPenSource software to proprietary ones from Microsoft or Nokia(symbian), China will be the most logical choice for Linux devices to develop. PalmSource is just piggy-backing on the potential Linux market.

to quote what Sachin said on the other forum

Returning back to our original discussion ALP is a new linux based
platform and I very much believe that Palm was loosing out in the
mobile race to WinCE platform so it decided to join hands with Linux,
the only other OS giving some kind of resistance to Windows.
It's Palm being wrapped on Linux, so its programming is going to be a
lot different than programming for CE.

I agree with Sachin and I think the most "logical" choice for PlecoDict to be programmed in for the future for the new Palm wrapped-LinuxOS (Conbalt) platform is Java. Because Java applications should run quite well on Linux based OSes. Also once such Java based PlecDict is written you can easily port it to Nokia's Symbian devices without too much rehacking or hassle.

Ok Mike get on with it. ( that was just a passiing thought.) :wink:

 

[Anonymous]

above

incidentally the above was written by me but you get logged off so quickly in this forum. :lol:

 

[sui.generis]

In addition to ALP, David Beers is writing that Palm is developing an in-house Linux OS. He has suggested that their intentions might simply be to provide a backup in case ALP doesn't work out, it might be to get accustomed to prepping linux to Palm hardware, or considering that they have not yet committed to using ALP or been vocal about liscensing, that they might actually be planning on their Palm Linux to be the true successor to the Palm OS.

That said, they've already tested the waters with a winmob Treo. I wouldn't be surprised if they intro'ed another PDA, like the successor to the TE2 or LD, with a winmob version. I don't believe they'll jump ship on the OS entirely, but you never know. They've lost a lot of ground that they didn't have to lose by splitting and then trying to rejoin, deving linux and the now worthless cobalt instead of picking one and actually producing a product in a timely manner. The market was theirs to lose a few years ago, and they fumbled.

There are a lot of possibilities that could bring them back, and I'd love to see it. But as it stands now, I'm keeping an eye on linux handhelds like the Sharp Zaurus for when my TX is no longer good enough (that should be a long time from now).

Since Sony got out and the Zodiac was discontinued, POS has seen better days in the hardware department.

Edit: Oh, and I'll switch to winMob when they force it into my cold dead hands.

 

[mikelove]

Well whatever Palm does I suspect they'll try very hard to make it compatible with older Palm OS software - StyleTap managed to do this without any Palm OS licenses or as far as I know any inside knowledge of how the Palm OS operates, so I'm sure that it's well within Palm's capabilities to develop a Palm OS emulation system for whatever new OS they release. Windows Mobile may have gained a lot of ground, but it's still a pretty terrible OS, and while I don't think any flavor of Palm OS is likely to ever regain the market share it once had, I certainly think there's plenty of room for a Palm-like Microsoft competitor. And I could easily see handhelds like the Zaurus shipping with some flavor of ALP; one of the biggest problems for Linux-based handhelds right now is the lack of a large base of 3rd-party software (and the complexity of building software to support the dizzying array of mutually-incompatible Linux PDA configurations) and ALP could be a very nice solution to that.

And I agree with you completely about the sad state of Palm hardware - I'm starting to wish I hadn't sold my Zodiac

 

[lmcjipo]

A few weeks ago, I upgraded my Treo 600 (which runs the PalmOS) to a Treo 650 (also runs the PalmOS). I've been using PalmOS PDAs for at least 7 years now. I was introduced (given) a Palm III at work and got hooked on it within a few weeks. When I had to return my Palm III, I immediately purchased a Visor Deluxe to replace it.

I went from a Palm III -> Visor Deluxe -> Visor Prism -> GSM Treo 600 -> GSM Treo 650

At this point, I wouldn't dream of trading my PalmOS PDA for a Windows based PDA. I'm not anti-Windows or anti-Microsoft since I use Windows at work and at home.

One of the main reasons why I haven't considered switching to a Windows based PDA (or a Symbian based PDA) is because of all the programs that I've purchased all these years which run on the PalmOS.

However, there are some things that I like about the new Windows based PDAs (or more accurately what I like about the new Windows based smartphones). I've also noticed that there are a lot more programs (or programmers/companies) that are only making Windows-based PDA programs. There also appears to be a program for the new Treo 700w that allows you to run PalmOS programs called StyleTap (http://www.StyleTap.com). I'm not sure how well this program works since I've never used it before.

 

[lmcjipo]

Sorry Mike. I didn't read your previous post about StyleTap above my posting before I posted my message (after I voted on whether I would give up my PalmOS device).

 

[SandRunner]

I think it's the end

Frankly, I've also been a long-time user, Palm III -> Handspring (Deluxe?) -> Sony Clie NJ-22 -> Tungsten E2. The E2 is a piece of junk, that has disappointed me with each passing week. I wish I'd had the sense to return the two I bought - for myself and my wife - before the 30 day return period had passed. My next PDA will be a PocketPC. I feel that the E2 was Palm's way of burning its customers. I won't repeat the littany of flaws here, but this product not only indicates an extreme failure of QA control, but also the absolute abysmal state of their post-consumption consumer relations. The product should be recalled, but they're not going to do that.

So, I feel that I should at least try a Pocket PC next time. Perhaps they'll earn and keep my business.

 

[sfrrr]

SandRunner--I'm the person who started this topic a loooong time ago. I use both Palms and PPCs for my work and my device of choice is always a PPC. As far as I'm concerned (and I think Mike would disagree), PD works much better on the Windows Mobile platform gadgets. However, I'm a techie and I prefer the power of the PPC over the ease of use of the Palm. If you don't like fiddling, I'd advise one of two tacks: either fiddle until you've got the PPC working just the way you like and then DON'T CHANGE A THING (don't upgrade, don't add on, don't nothing). Or stay with the Palm, maybe a LifeDrive, which is just about the only Palm I can truly tolerate.

If you are indeed going to switch to a Windows Mobile device, don't get the present Treo with Windows--yet. Wait until it has a more powerful processor and a bunch more memory. And a VGA screen.

Sandra

 

[gato]

There have been reports that the performance of PlecoDict on the Palm LifeDrive is terrible.

I use the now discontinued Sony CLIE TH55 (Sony got out of the PDA business) with my PlecoDict. I think it's perfect PDA for PlecoDict because of its super-long battery life, over ten hours per charge.

viewtopic.php?t=560&highlight=lifedrive
Reading Chinese texts using the Plecodict DA just became more of a chore when I upgraded to a Lifedrive. It's not a terrible machine, but for using Plecodict, even my crusty old Tungsten E whips it hands down. Why couldn't Palm put in some hard drive usage software to determine HOW an application is using the drive and perform differently as per this? Needless to say, my LD's on eBay and the TX is in the post.

 

[mikelove]

SandRunner - fair point, Palm's hardware and support quality have both gone downhill lately, though for ease-of-use reasons I'd still pick a Palm OS handheld over a Windows Mobile one any day. You could always look at a Garmin iQue - they're about the only company other than Palm that still makes Palm OS handhelds, and if their rock-solid GPSes are any sign they may do a better job at quality control than Palm does. I agree with sfrrr on avoiding the Treo 700w, though since that's another one from Palm I imagine you'd prefer a different brand anyway.

gato - yes, I wouldn't recommend the LifeDrive to anyone at this point, particularly since you can purchase a TX and a 4 GB SD card for about the same amount of money and end up with a device that has the same features and just as much storage capacity but is faster, smaller, and more reliable.

 

[james]

Re: Is the Palm OS dead? (no flames, please. This is serious

Quote: PalmSource is killing off the Palm OS we know and ... Palm will continue to produce the hardware but who knows what operating systems it will run.


To quote from this post (http://blogs.business2.com/utilitybelt/ ... alm_p.html):
"The Palm OS is comatose. And Access, the Japanese company that now owns the Palm OS after its purchase of PalmSource, seems incapable of doing much about it."

"Access, a company with no apparent experience successfully developing mass-market mobile operating systems, owns the software behind the bulk of Palm's business. The people responsible for developing the Palm OS have not delivered a significant improvement to the software in years. Meanwhile, Palm's product roadmap is at the mercy of Access – while Palm engineers can deliver clever hacks that approximate modern capabilities such as multi-threading, they can't rebuild the operating system from scratch to most efficiently deliver a multimedia experience."

The author is a reporter with long time connections to Palm. Reading between the lines, he sees this issue coming to a head soon. "Palm wants control of its destiny – and it won't have that until it has more control of its software."

 

[lmcjipo]

Palm being sued

Now that Palm is being sued by NTP (like NTP sued RIM over their Blackberry), they might be sued into non-existence/bankrupcy according to the article on Forbes: http://www.forbes.com/2006/11/07/palm-n ... r=yahootix

According to the article, Palm does not have as much money as RIM to withstand a long pending lawsuit. Anyways, according to the article, NTP will probably wind up suing more companies over patents that they own but never developed.

Hopefully Palm doesn't get crushed by an unjustified lawsuit.

 

[mikelove]

james - People have been predicting the death of the Palm OS for years and years now (witness the year-and-a-half this thread has been around). The OS itself is in some respects already dead - they killed it off with Palm OS 5, which is in many respects a completely different OS but one which runs older Palm OS software seamlessly thanks to an innovative emulation system called PACE.

The reporter talks about Palm wanting more control over its software destiny, and on that front I agree; however, I think they'll do that without giving up on "Palm OS" as we know it. As you may know, StyleTap makes an emulator that does a pretty darn good job of running most Palm OS software on Pocket PC; they apparently developed this without any access to internal information about the Palm OS beyond what's publicly available. It may not run our software perfectly, but if we didn't offer a separate Pocket PC version, we could in a few weeks' development type develop a version of our software that ran as well on StyleTap as it does on a real Palm.

Now if a small company without access to any confidential information about the inner workings of Palm OS can develop an emulator that works as well as StyleTap does, surely Palm, with many more engineers and years of experience tweaking / customizing / adding features to Palm OS, could develop something much better, something that works just as well as PACE does in Palm OS 5. And indeed it's been widely suggested that they're doing exactly that. So they don't need to rely on ACCESS to develop a new OS that's backwards-compatible with old Palm software; they just need to put some Palm-OS-savvy engineers together and develop their own version of PACE. And it's well worth the trouble for them to do that, given the continued bugginess of Windows Mobile (not to mention the fact that they still haven't redesigned it to work on square-screen Treos) and the large installed base of customers who don't want to lose all of their Palm software.

Hence, ACCESS may die, Palm OS as we know it may be able to cease to exist, but I suspect you'll still be able to buy handhelds and smartphones that will run "Palm OS" software for at least the next 5 years or so.

lmcjipo - I'm not too worried about this lawsuit, actually. Most of NTP's patents have already been invalidated, so Palm just has to tread water until the appeals process finishes and the odds are after that they won't have to pay them a dime.

I might also add that I completely and wholeheartedly agree with that article's attitude about software patents - I think they're an absolute abomination, if it were up to me I'd invalidate every single one of them and pass a law to ban software from being patented in the future. And I sincerely hope that the anti-software-patent forces in the EU manage to hold on against the bureaucratic onslaught that's attempting to force them on people there.

 

[lmcjipo]

lmcjipo - I'm not too worried about this lawsuit, actually. Most of NTP's patents have already been invalidated, so Palm just has to tread water until the appeals process finishes and the odds are after that they won't have to pay them a dime.

I might also add that I completely and wholeheartedly agree with that article's attitude about software patents - I think they're an absolute abomination, if it were up to me I'd invalidate every single one of them and pass a law to ban software from being patented in the future. And I sincerely hope that the anti-software-patent forces in the EU manage to hold on against the bureaucratic onslaught that's attempting to force them on people there.

According to the article, Palm can take the moral highground but does it have the money for prolong court challenges and appeals processes? I don't know much about Palm's finances but according to the article, no they don't. If the NTP challenge is not settled before it reaches the court system, it will be a long and costly fight.

I seem to remember that Palm/3com was sued by another company a few years ago (I believe it was Xerox) over the handwriting recognition used by the PalmOS PDA and I think that the same company also sued Apple over their old Newton.

 

[mikelove]

$527 million (Palm's cash horde) is a lot of money - RIM didn't settle because they couldn't afford to continue fighting the lawsuit, they settled because their customers were worried about a court judgment shutting their network down. And in Palm's case, they don't even have to go to the (considerable) expense of challenging NTP's patents because there's already been a finding by the USPTO that the patents are invalid.

It's partly because of the Xerox experience that I'm confident that Palm knows what they're doing here - they clearly weighed the cost of signing a license with NTP versus the cost of fighting the lawsuit (and the risk of losing it) and decided that it was worth fighting. Given the market Palm is in, I suspect at least part of the reason is that they don't want to look soft on nasty little patent-leech companies like NTP; if they gave in to NTP, they'd soon get threatening letters from dozens of other companies with worthless patents, but by fighting them they show that they're not willing to be pushed around.

(still mad about that Xerox lawsuit, actually - equally worthless patent, but because of it Palm had to replace their wonderful Graffiti text input system with the vastly-inferior Graffiti 2)

 

[Aunty]

I'm happy with the PalmOS, it seems well suited to its purpose. Even the antiques like my V/Vx do reliable work on amazingly meager resources. If future versions become dumbed down and restrict my use of the device, I'll drop it.

I haven't used Microsoft Windows on a PC, it's never offered anything that I can't get already on a lower spec unix box so I've had no reason to try it. I can't imagine myself ever bothering with it on a pocket sized device either. For people who only know Windows the motivation might be very different, I guess.

As for Linux, I have reservations but I might try it if PalmOS were no longer available, especially if Linux came with a commandline and a few of the standard tools, that would appeal.

If it ever becomes too much hassle there's always desktops and paper.