English to pinyin - set of words..... help!

[herve]

Hi all,

I have not been here since a "long" time, and I would like to raise again an idea I put here in the past : a english to pinyin translater for set of words.
Not a "pure" phrase translator, but rather an help to build chinese sentences.

Requirements
When speaking, the first point is to have the words. When I have them, and when I try to build simple sentences, I know "enough" (never "enough", but let say that I can manage it ;-) about grammar, how to build sentences, where to put the "de" and the "le" for instance.
Thus, back to the "first point", I am looking for an help to find my "missing words". Note that except words that I perfectly know, there are words:
- for which I am only missing the tone,
- that I completly ignore,
- for which I have some idea, but not sure enough.
Using PlecoDict as it is may be long, too long.
I would like to be able to type a list of words (the ones that I miss!), and ask PlecoDict to give me the pinyin translation (the goal is to speak...).
When several answers exist, a list of pinyin can be returned. For that case, the chinese characters might be helpful as well, because the characters will show radicals that could help in selected the (expected) appropriate word.
The system does not have to care about the order of words, for instance.

Implementation (functional point of view!)
Instead of using the current input mechanism, it probably needs a new window (access through a button).
In this window, the english words could be input in one line, separated by blanks.
The result could be shown as follow :
- a list of "entries", one for each english word;
- each entry = english, pinyin + chinese character, ...and so on if multiple possibilities.
When taping on a pinyin or chinese character, the application could switch to the "normal" view of the word. Because access to the "normal" dictionary might be done several time, the result of that search could remain in memory (with automatic 'clear' when typing a new list of english entries.


Here it is!
What do you think about this "speaking helper"?

 

[chao-ren]

Thesaurus

Your idea sounds like some form of translated Thesaurus..

But the surprising point of your idea is that your end goal is speaking!
(not writing).

There is also an implicit assumption that you are building up your Chinese vocabulary from English. While this is convenient in the "beginning" , I find it becomes increasingly muddled as your chinese level progresses.

After learning Chinese for many years (already) , I find that there are many words(词)or phrases (词组) which cannot be easily translated into English and in addition (for the "same" words) their usage/grammar is different in either language even if you have successful translated the meaning.

I can see how a translated "thesaurus" can be useful for a translator trying to find the most "suitable" words while he sits down to do his work for several hours at a time, but such a system would be too slow for speaking (at least for me).

For most speaking situations, I find that it is not necessary to have a huge vocabulary of words or terms "at your fingertips".

I think one of the most frustrating thing about learning Chinese or a new language as an adult is that you have so many words or terms you can express in your native language (English) which cannot be "carried over" into your new language (Chinese).

Beyond a certain "stage" in my learning of a new language(Chinese) it becomes increasingly inconvenient to seek a translation or origin from my native language. I don't know how true this is for you but personally I increasingly build up new vocabulary from simpler words in the same language. This also i find inceases your fluency in the new language. i.e. the act of translation in the brain is too slow. When l was learning English I rarely find it necessary to find a foreign language word to "substitute" the meaning so I try to do the same with Chinese. This Chinese -Chinese literally also forces you to use your Chinese vocabulary (in your brain). AND the more you use your Chinese vocab, the more fluent you become.
The only benefit I have found with foreign languge word substitution is that in some cases it helps you remember the equivalent Chinese word faster but translation is still very much more a detraction than a plus.


Well this is just my opinion.

Happy Mid-Autumn Festival.

 

[goulniky]

For most speaking situations, I find that it is not necessary to have a huge vocabulary of words or terms "at your fingertips".

I couldn't agree more, you need to understand a lot more than you have to say, despite the frustration. In my experience, with Chinese and English alike, listening and production require different skill levels.
You have tolerate a fair amount of uncertainty when people talk to you but still need a large vocab. When speaking though, you can do with a much more restricted vocab but you have to have the tones right, the patterns under control, and speak with confidence.
And as chao-ren said, you won't have time to pull out your PDA other than for looking up the odd word. And you indeed need to quickly switch to Chinese mode rather than translation from another language.
I've recently discovered ChinesePod.com which produces daily podcasts across many levels, that structurally address that difference. The mp3 recordings contain relatively short pieces embedding the fundamental patterns but limited vocabulary (which you'd need to fully master). As of the intermediate level, they also contain a fair amount of 'banter' i.e. free form discussion, in Chinese and in some occasions English, which help you make sense of the dialogue but are uttered at natural speed using a broader vocab, as you would typically encounter in real life.

 

[herve]

I agree with your statements : I am looking for an helper in order to speak, and at the end, when my chinese language will be good enough, I will not need any kind of help (as I am now with english: my native language is french...).

This is why:
- I am looking for something simple
- I am looking first for pinyin, which I know how to speak, and chinese characters are at a second level (in case of several translations coming from the dictionary, the radicals of characters, for instance, may help me making a better "guess" of what I search)
- I do not ask for speach in the system. In addition to help me during discussions, it is also good to speak so that we learn at the same time. Important as well: people in front of you will recognise that you make efforts, which is always good in human relations.

To be more precise:
I am looking for a word-to-word translation, not a phrase translation. If, for instance, I want to say "Yesterday I read an book from Mr.X, and I concluded that this man is very intelligent", I could (still an example) type "intelligent yesterday conclude" and have translation from these three words.

 

[mikelove]

Actually, this is pretty close to an idea we've already been playing around with for a while - essentially a "phrase marshaling" feature that lets you chain together a couple of different lookups in one place so that you can easily access all of the relevant words at the same time. We hadn't been planning on giving it a different search interface, it would basically just be a way of creating a quick little list of entries that you could easily scan through without having to go through the flashcard system, but this is an interesting twist on that. The main problem would be coming up with simple enough translations, since most of our English-to-Chinese dictionaries have rather lengthy definitions and you're really just looking for one or two words and no example sentences / grammatical notes / etc.