I.P.A. transcriptions in flashcards or dictionaries

[Shun]

Hi,

will future versions of Pleco include fields for transcriptions in the International Phonetic Alphabet, especially for representing the pronunciations of dialects/方言? As I understand it, the future flashcards will be rather flexible as to what data fields it allows (pictures, sound, and so on), so the question would be more if I.P.A. will also be included with some dictionaries and then automatically included in flashcards based on these dictionaries.

I see there is already a downloadable IPA keyboard layout available in the iOS App Store, Android also has it.

Thanks, Shun

 

[mikelove]

You'd be able to add it yourself, I think, and we plan to also have a facility for importing data from files into specific fields, but we have no current plans for enhanced IPA support in our own dictionaries. (actually, we credit the absence of IPA as one of the reasons why we haven't been more heavily pirated - makes our app noticeably less appealing for Chinese users)

 

[Shun]

I see! Just to make sure we are talking about the same thing, I meant IPA not for words in a Western language, but for specific Chinese regional dialects, not even Putonghua, since that is already covered by pinyin. Chinese users shouldn't be too interested in that, should they? Naturally, this would be useful only after a fangyan dictionary for 方言 other than Cantonese is released. I guess this will happen sooner or later. Thanks!

 

[mikelove]

Ah, well if we licensed a dictionary for one of those we wouldn't be shy about including IPA, but no current plans to do so.

 

[Furio Petrossi]

As I read in http://sino-platonic.org/complete/spp052_chinese_ipa.pdf also IPA transcription is not unambiguous (till 1999).
There's a site that transcript chinese words, bu not dialects, in IPA http://easypronunciation.com/en/chinese-pinyin-phonetic-transcription-converter
Example:
ku̯ɔ2tɕi4 药物ji̯ɑʊ̯4wu4 摘要tʂaɪ̯1ji̯ɑʊ̯4 ; 国际ku̯ɔ2tɕi4 语音学ɥu3jin1ɕy̯œ2 协会ɕi̯ɛ2xu̯eɪ̯4 for
guó jì 药物yào wù 摘要zhāi yào ; 国际guó jì 语音学yǔ yīn xué 协会xié huì ;

I know that there exists the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Dictionary_of_Modern_Chinese_Dialects
(above the article there is a link)

 

[Shun]

Indeed, at least there is a more-or-less 1:1 link between pinyin for Putonghua and its IPA transcription.

Thanks, the book you mention must be an important work for dialectologists. (I had asked this question on someone else's behalf.)

 

[alex_hk90]

As I read in http://sino-platonic.org/complete/spp052_chinese_ipa.pdf also IPA transcription is not unambiguous (till 1999).

Interesting article - I haven't read through all of it yet but at least at the start it seems to be saying that Pinyin is not phonetic?
I was taught Pinyin was phonetic - did this happen since the article was published (in 1994)?

 

[Furio Petrossi]

Pinyin is not phonetic?

Pinyin is not phonetic, is phonologic, like Bopomofo: it identify not the specific sound but the unit that a local listener can identify and recognize.
In English "bear" is separated from "pear", but in chinese "bā" (eight) can be be pronociated using the english "b" or "p" or similar, because the phonologic difference for chinese people is from p (Pinyin b) and p' (Pinyn p).
For example, in Italian the word "pare" (2 units: pa-re), can correspond to different phonetic prononciations: /'pare/ /'pa:re/ /'pære/ /'pæ:re/ but italians listeners unterstand the same word.

Anyway there is a more strict correspondence from I.P.A. phonetic and chinese Pinyin, that from I.P.A. phonetic and English spelling! Also in Italian (I'm italian) the corrispondence is closer.

I.P.A. simplest characters are obviously the occidental languages characters (I.P.A. was created in 1886, by a group of French and British language teachers), look at

Phonology is a branch of linguistics concerned with the systematic organization of sounds in languages
fəˈnɒlədʒı ız ə brɑːntʃ əv lıŋˈgwıstıks kənˈsɜːnd wıð ðə ˌsıstıˈmætık ˌɔːgənaıˈzeıʃ(ə)n əv saʋndz ın ˈlæŋgwıdʒɪz

La fonologia è la branca della linguistica che studia i sistemi di suoni ("sistemi fonologici") delle lingue del mondo
la fonolo'dʒia ˈɛ la 'braŋka della liŋ'ɡwistika ke 'sstudja i si'stemi di 'swoni ("sis'temi fono'lodʒitʃi") 'delle' liŋɡwe del 'mondo

音位学 是研究某一语言的音位的学问
Yīn wèi xué shì yánjiū mǒu yī yǔyán de yīn wèi de xuéwèn
jin1wu̯eɪ̯4 ɕy̯œ2 ʂɨ4 ji̯ɛn2tɕi̯ɤʊ̯1 mɤʊ̯3 ji4 ɥu3ji̯ɛn2 tə5 jin1wu̯eɪ̯4 tə5 ɕy̯œ2wu̯ən4

So I.P.A. characters for chinese language, for chinese people are.. chinese (=unintellegible)!

 

[alex_hk90]

Pinyin is not phonetic, is phonologic, like Bopomofo: it identify not the specific sound but the unit that a local listener can identify and recognize.
In English "bear" is separated from "pear", but in chinese "bā" (eight) can be be pronociated using the english "b" or "p" or similar, because the phonologic difference for chinese people is from p (Pinyin b) and p' (Pinyn p).
For example, in Italian the word "pare" (2 units: pa-re), can correspond to different phonetic prononciations: /'pare/ /'pa:re/ /'pære/ /'pæ:re/ but italians listeners unterstand the same word.

Anyway there is a more strict correspondence from I.P.A. phonetic and chinese Pinyin, that from I.P.A. phonetic and English spelling! Also in Italian (I'm italian) the corrispondence is closer.

I.P.A. simplest characters are obviously the occidental languages characters (I.P.A. was created in 1886, by a group of French and British language teachers), look at

Phonology is a branch of linguistics concerned with the systematic organization of sounds in languages
fəˈnɒlədʒı ız ə brɑːntʃ əv lıŋˈgwıstıks kənˈsɜːnd wıð ðə ˌsıstıˈmætık ˌɔːgənaıˈzeıʃ(ə)n əv saʋndz ın ˈlæŋgwıdʒɪz

La fonologia è la branca della linguistica che studia i sistemi di suoni ("sistemi fonologici") delle lingue del mondo
la fonolodʒa ˈɛ la braŋka della liŋɡwistika ke sstudja i sistemi di swoni ("sistemi fonolodʒitʃi") delle liŋɡwe del mondo

音位学 是研究某一语言的音位的学问
Yīn wèi xué shì yánjiū mǒu yī yǔyán de yīn wèi de xuéwèn
jin1wu̯eɪ̯4 ɕy̯œ2 ʂɨ4 ji̯ɛn2tɕi̯ɤʊ̯1 mɤʊ̯3 ji4 ɥu3ji̯ɛn2 tə5 jin1wu̯eɪ̯4 tə5 ɕy̯œ2wu̯ən4

So I.P.A. characters for chinese language, for chinese people are.. chinese (=unintellegible)!

I see, so there is a one to many mapping from Pinyin to IPA, but a one to one mapping from IPA to Pinyin?

 

[Wan]

I see, so there is a one to many mapping from Pinyin to IPA, but a one to one mapping from IPA to Pinyin?

That is not quite correct.
Yes, there are many mappings from Pinyin to IPA: Different speakers of putonghua may pronounce the same word (better: syllable) differently, but it would still be the same pinyin. If you wrote what they say down in IPA, you’d get different results.
But: One pronunciation in IPA could be, e.g., one speaker’s [pinyin] sì and another speaker’s [pinyin] shì. They could pronounce it the same way, but mean different pinyin syllables.

 

[Shun]

That is not quite correct.
Yes, there are many mappings from Pinyin to IPA: Different speakers of putonghua may pronounce the same word (better: syllable) differently, but it would still be the same pinyin. If you wrote what they say down in IPA, you’d get different results.
But: One pronunciation in IPA could be, e.g., one speaker’s [pinyin] sì and another speaker’s [pinyin] shì. They could pronounce it the same way, but mean different pinyin syllables.

Indeed, but if you take one particular kind of Putonghua, or one speaker, it should be 1:1.

 

[Furio Petrossi]

Indeed, but if you take one particular kind of Putonghua, or one speaker, it should be 1:1.

when pinyn was created, were recorded a number of long play disks with the 'official pronunciation decided by the government'.
Look at the Wu Yu Chang's 1958 article http://pinyin.info/readings/zhou_enlai/simplified_characters_putonghua_pinyin.html , in particular the phrase 'The sale of gramophone records for teaching the common speech has topped the million mark. The training classes in the phonetics of the common speech, jointly conducted by the Ministry of Education and the Chinese Academy of Sciences, have trained over 550 people to form the core in the work of popularizing the common speech in various provinces and municipalities' , 550 phonetic heroes...

 

[Shun]

when pinyn was created, were recorded a number of long play disks with the 'official pronunciation decided by the government'.
Look at the Wu Yu Chang's 1958 article http://pinyin.info/readings/zhou_enlai/simplified_characters_putonghua_pinyin.html , in particular the phrase 'The sale of gramophone records for teaching the common speech has topped the million mark. The training classes in the phonetics of the common speech, jointly conducted by the Ministry of Education and the Chinese Academy of Sciences, have trained over 550 people to form the core in the work of popularizing the common speech in various provinces and municipalities' , 550 phonetic heroes...

Wow, that's impressive! Thanks for that. Very typical for China. (not necessarily in a bad way)