iPhone 5 + new iPod Touch

mikelove · Sep 12, 2012

The bigger news for us is probably the new iPod, since it looks like they finally added an autofocus lens - after 2 years we finally have a non-phone, non-tablet that can be used for OCR. Though one that seems a little pricey at $300 - I'm almost left wondering if the mini iPad is a myth and if this is all we're actually getting.

The new taller screen in that and the iPhone 5 shouldn't be tricky to support, the main question is whether people's experience with the black letterbox bars will be bad enough that we'll have to hurry out an update to support it officially with our old app (which would require several days' work back-porting our new DRM system in order to get past App Review) or whether we can wait and only support it in our probably-not-too-far-off big update. If we find any serious bugs on the 5 that would probably force our hand, but if it's just a question of a slightly annoying waste of screen space we might decide to wait.

goldyn chyld · Sep 12, 2012

Pretty darn disappointing event. Seems like the iPod Nano almost stole the show. They didn't even bring anything revolutionary at all in terms of iPhone and we've pretty much known everything for months from all the rumors and pics circulating around the web. Obviously, the phone is going to be a beast as far as hardware is concerned, but imo the biggest disappointment is the screen. Why did they go with the BS 16:9 format?! If you increase the height, you SHOULD increase the width proportionally for it to make sense. Meh, I'm pretty discontent with this update.

Anyways, a 4" screen will surely be a welcome change in Pleco, more entries fitting on the screen and all that.

mikelove · Sep 12, 2012

goldyn chyld said:
Pretty darn disappointing event. Seems like the iPod Nano almost stole the show. They didn't even bring anything revolutionary at all in terms of iPhone and we've pretty much known everything for months from all the rumors and pics circulating around the web. Obviously, the phone is going to be a beast as far as hardware is concerned, but imo the biggest disappointment is the screen. Why did they go with the BS 16:9 format?! If you increase the height, you SHOULD increase the width proportionally for it to make sense. Meh, I'm pretty discontent with this update.

16:9 strikes me as a little odd, but I think they're trying to balance their desire to keep the grip optimal for people with smaller hands than your average technology writer with the insistent demand for more screen space - they can't make the screen wider without turning off a large percentage of their customers.

As far as the larger question of what they can do to innovate... this is a pretty mature market now and there's a limited amount you can do that isn't a "gimmick." Remember PCs in the late-90s / early-2000s, when every manufacturer was adding some darn new port or expansion slot or magical something-or-other to cover up the fact that they were basically all selling the same hardware in a different case? The only difference now is that there's more active competition in the OS ecosystem front, but hardware-wise, until there's some revolutionary change in battery / display technology these are all going to be incremental updates. (even the supposedly feature-packed Nokia 920 doesn't really add anything I'd consider a non-gimmick, not to mention the fact that it currently lacks a release date and a price and that nobody's gotten to actually try out these various new technologies yet)

character · Sep 12, 2012

16:9 strikes me as a little odd, but I think they're trying to balance their desire to keep the grip optimal for people with smaller hands than your average technology writer with the insistent demand for more screen space - they can't make the screen wider without turning off a large percentage of their customers.

I used to think that, but the smartphone has gone from phone+other features to the reverse, where the apps/browser/maps/etc. are more important than the phone call functionality. It's just a data point, but yesterday I had lunch with someone who said his wife wanted an iPhone, but wanted a bigger screen more, so she went with Android.

My guess is next year's iPhone won't just be a faster 5, but instead will be an even bigger phone.

I've had two coworkers with Samsung Notes -- I suspect the sweet spot for me is somewhere between the current iPhone and the Samsung Note monster.

As far as innovation Apple could do:
- 1 ms input lag: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vOvQCPLkPt4
- Drive a large touch monitor with the phone for 'desktop iOS'
- Siri that is really useful

mikelove · Sep 12, 2012

character said:
I used to think that, but the smartphone has gone from phone+other features to the reverse, where the apps/browser/maps/etc. are more important than the phone call functionality. It's just a data point, but yesterday I had lunch with someone who said his wife wanted an iPhone, but wanted a bigger screen more, so she went with Android.

You still need to hold it even if you're using it for data services - if it were just a question of it being comfortable to hold on phone calls then Apple would simply include a really great rechargeable Bluetooth headset and make the screen as big as they want.

character said:
My guess is next year's iPhone won't just be a faster 5, but instead will be an even bigger phone.

That one seems doubtful to me - if they were going to make a bigger phone they would have done it this year, the last thing they want is two screen resolution compatibility breaks in a row.

character said:
- 1 ms input lag: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vOvQCPLkPt4

Only in labs at the moment, though it'll certainly be cool if they get it working well on mobiles without draining the battery too much. (I question how noticeable it would really be, though)

character said:
- Drive a large touch monitor with the phone for 'desktop iOS'

That one I'm not seeing - is anybody really interested in a larger-than-tablet touch monitor? Past that point the most comfortable interaction method is to control what's going on on the screen remotely with a mouse.

character said:
- Siri that is really useful

Google's actually closer on that, I think, but their new Siri-like voice search will probably be working on iPhones very soon too.

Vzzzbx · Sep 12, 2012

mikelove said:
the main question is whether people's experience with the black letterbox bars will be bad enough that we'll have to hurry out an update to support it officially with our old app (which would require several days' work back-porting our new DRM system in order to get past App Review) or whether we can wait and only support it in our probably-not-too-far-off big update. If we find any serious bugs on the 5 that would probably force our hand, but if it's just a question of a slightly annoying waste of screen space we might decide to wait.

You might as well wait. Pleco is a utility, not a game or video that would disappoint graphics whores, so a few weeks/months of letterboxing won't hurt anyone. Most hand-held Pleco users will still be on the current screen resolution for ages anyway (iPhone 3G/4/4S, iPod Touch 3rd/4th gen).

Also, I reckon if you ran a straw poll asking users whether you should spend your time back-porting the new DRM system or finishing the NBU, support for the latter would be overwhelming.

mikelove · Sep 12, 2012

Vzzzbx said:
You might as well wait. Pleco is a utility, not a game or video that would disappoint graphics whores, so a few weeks/months of letterboxing won't hurt anyone. Most hand-held Pleco users will still be on the current screen resolution for ages anyway (iPhone 3G/4/4S, iPod Touch 3rd/4th gen).

That's my inclination too, particularly as we haven't found any major bugs so far with the GM build of OS 6 that would necessitate a rush update (a funny-looking but still perfectly functional back button in the web reader on iPad is the worst we've come across as of now) - there's always the chance that the actual hardware might reveal a new issue with OCR or thread synchronization or something, but we don't have a situation like we had with iOS 5 where handwriting input was totally unusable until we updated our app, or - worse yet - with iOS 4 where the system could crash when you attempted to purchase an add-on.

Vzzzbx said:
Also, I reckon if you ran a straw poll asking users whether you should spend your time back-porting the new DRM system or finishing the NBU, support for the latter would be overwhelming.

The new bundles aren't waiting on us to get our programming done so much as they're waiting on other people to get their data file conversion / type design done; it's almost more a question of whether we add one more new feature / refinement than it is of whether we get the app out a few days earlier. But yes, I suspect most people would prefer that new feature.

character · Sep 13, 2012

mikelove said:
You still need to hold it even if you're using it for data services - if it were just a question of it being comfortable to hold on phone calls then Apple would simply include a really great rechargeable Bluetooth headset and make the screen as big as they want.

People manage to hold the Android phones.

character said:
That one seems doubtful to me - if they were going to make a bigger phone they would have done it this year, the last thing they want is two screen resolution compatibility breaks in a row.

Didn't they get rid of the 320x480 resolution this time around? With auto layout, I think they've laid down the gauntlet that developers will just have to expect varied screen resolutions from now on.

character said:
character said:

- 1 ms input lag: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vOvQCPLkPt4

Click to expand...

Only in labs at the moment, though it'll certainly be cool if they get it working well on mobiles without draining the battery too much. (I question how noticeable it would really be, though)

I can't use drawing/handwriting apps such as Penultimate on the iPad because the delay is so bad.

character said:
character said:

- Drive a large touch monitor with the phone for 'desktop iOS'

Click to expand...

That one I'm not seeing - is anybody really interested in a larger-than-tablet touch monitor? Past that point the most comfortable interaction method is to control what's going on on the screen remotely with a mouse.

Apple's not going to support a mouse. They already support a keyboard. There are touch monitors which tilt to a comfortable angle for interaction. I'm not saying a touch monitor is ideal for everything, but I could see it being popular for interacting with movie/photo editing, etc. apps.

mikelove · Sep 13, 2012

character said:
People manage to hold the Android phones.

That doesn't mean they're comfortable to grip. And since they're not designed with a generous border around the screen like (most) tablets are, there isn't the option to hold it on one side like you might grip an e-book reader.

character said:
Didn't they get rid of the 320x480 resolution this time around? With auto layout, I think they've laid down the gauntlet that developers will just have to expect varied screen resolutions from now on.

No, iOS 6 still works on the iPhone 3GS. And on the iPad 2, so we've now got a total of 5 screen sizes to deal with. Auto layout is fine for some types of apps - would probably work well for Pleco if we were willing to require iOS 6 - but there are many others for which it wouldn't work as well owing to highly customized UIs / carefully optimized ergonomics / etc.

character said:
I can't use drawing/handwriting apps such as Penultimate on the iPad because the delay is so bad.

Are you sure that's a digitizer problem and not a GPU one?

character said:
Apple's not going to support a mouse. They already support a keyboard. There are touch monitors which tilt to a comfortable angle for interaction. I'm not saying a touch monitor is ideal for everything, but I could see it being popular for interacting with movie/photo editing, etc. apps.

My point was that large-screen activities are more likely to continue being done with something resembling a "traditional" PC interface, rather than a touchscreen. Which for now means they'd be done on a traditional PC.

character · Sep 13, 2012

mikelove said:
That doesn't mean they're comfortable to grip. And since they're not designed with a generous border around the screen like (most) tablets are, there isn't the option to hold it on one side like you might grip an e-book reader.

Guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

No, iOS 6 still works on the iPhone 3GS.

iOS 6 does, but Apple no longer sells the iPhone 3GS or the 3rd gen iPod Touch.

[...] there are many others for which it wouldn't work as well owing to highly customized UIs / carefully optimized ergonomics / etc.

I appreciate that, but I think the market has spoken, and it won't be possible for Apple to stick to their existing screen sizes. I can see them only producing a few sizes of screens, but it may take a while to settle on those sizes. They may end up being 4.5", 7.85", 9.7".

Are you sure that's a digitizer problem and not a GPU one?

Given what was said in the video, at least part of it is the digitizer.

My point was that large-screen activities are more likely to continue being done with something resembling a "traditional" PC interface, rather than a touchscreen. Which for now means they'd be done on a traditional PC.

Right, but from Apple's perspective (what they want to sell) and the growing number of people who are using the iPad as their main computer, having the ability to 'go big' with an iOS device to make it easier to use when at a desk could be appealing. I can connect my iPhone/iPad to a standard monitor now, but its an awkward experience.

mikelove · Sep 13, 2012

character said:
Guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

Fair enough. I do wonder if there's another form factor out there that might offer the best of both worlds, particularly with the recent weight / thickness improvements made possible by reducing the number of display layers.

character said:
iOS 6 does, but Apple no longer sells the iPhone 3GS or the 3rd gen iPod Touch.

They haven't technically discontinued the 3GS yet, and in some parts of the world I could easily see it living on for several years as Apple's answer to $100 unlocked Android phones. There's a reason why the App Store has recently expanded to places like Cambodia and Zimbabwe...

character said:
I appreciate that, but I think the market has spoken, and it won't be possible for Apple to stick to their existing screen sizes. I can see them only producing a few sizes of screens, but it may take a while to settle on those sizes. They may end up being 4.5", 7.85", 9.7".

I wouldn't be so sure about that, people are still buying iPhones. At the very least I wouldn't discount the possibility that there's a large market for 3.7-inch phones that Apple is quietly filling - Android isn't necessarily evolving in that direction because that's what all consumers want, there are simply some consumers who want large screens and aren't having their needs met by the iPhone.

character said:
Given what was said in the video, at least part of it is the digitizer.

Fair enough, but I'd still place most of the blame on graphics code - I see a huge difference between drawing performance in Pleco (which uses a very simple OpenGL-texture-based drawing system) and apps like Sketchbook and Penultimate that do more complicated things with pen input.

character said:
Right, but from Apple's perspective (what they want to sell) and the growing number of people who are using the iPad as their main computer, having the ability to 'go big' with an iOS device to make it easier to use when at a desk could be appealing. I can connect my iPhone/iPad to a standard monitor now, but its an awkward experience.

Perhaps, but I think iCloud is their answer to that - if your data lives both on your computer and your iPad then it's not really that much trouble to boot up the computer when you want to edit photos. There are some intriguing possibilities here with the Apple TV, too - you can basically think of it as a $100 ARM-based PC, and if you take away the need for vast amounts of local storage via iCloud and get through a few more generations of ARM processor speed boosts it could pretty much replace a traditional PC altogether.

scykei · Sep 13, 2012

I actually feel that a mini update to fit the larger screen can be worth it, especially if Apple puts a section on iTunes for "Apps designed for the iPhone 5" and you manage to get Pleco on there.

mikelove · Sep 13, 2012

scykei said:
I actually feel that a mini update to fit the larger screen can be worth it, especially if Apple puts a section on iTunes for "Apps designed for the iPhone 5" and you manage to get Pleco on there.

When they see our new type design they're going to be featuring us anyway

character · Sep 14, 2012

mikelove said:
They haven't technically discontinued the 3GS yet, and in some parts of the world I could easily see it living on for several years as Apple's answer to $100 unlocked Android phones. There's a reason why the App Store has recently expanded to places like Cambodia and Zimbabwe...

OTOH, those 8GB phones aren't really targeted at people likely to spend money on apps, so it's not clear many developers will bother with that screen resolution.

I wouldn't be so sure about that, people are still buying iPhones. At the very least I wouldn't discount the possibility that there's a large market for 3.7-inch phones that Apple is quietly filling [...]

It's hard to tell since there isn't a 4.5" iPhone on sale at the same time so we could get even anecdotal relative sales numbers. Does your Android sales data give you a view into Android screen trends? I get the impression the smartphone makers are currently seeking a common 4.something inch screen size, but haven't settled on one yet, in part because resolution can vary as well.

There are some intriguing possibilities here with the Apple TV, too - you can basically think of it as a $100 ARM-based PC, and if you take away the need for vast amounts of local storage via iCloud and get through a few more generations of ARM processor speed boosts it could pretty much replace a traditional PC altogether.

In general, I think Apple would like to close down the Mac business if it could transition most Mac users to an iOS-only existence.

Anyways, iPhone 5 ordered. Happy to help test anything.

scykei · Sep 14, 2012

Wow. I'm glad to see you this confident! Makes me so proud of my Mike.

mikelove · Sep 14, 2012

character said:
OTOH, those 8GB phones aren't really targeted at people likely to spend money on apps, so it's not clear many developers will bother with that screen resolution.

True, but the combination of those users and the lingering installed base of 3GSes (which will be floating around eBay etc for years) may be enough to keep developers who've already added support from dropping it anyway. We still get an email or two a month about our Windows Mobile software even though nobody's really selling many new Windows Mobile phones nowadays.

character said:
It's hard to tell since there isn't a 4.5" iPhone on sale at the same time so we could get even anecdotal relative sales numbers. Does your Android sales data give you a view into Android screen trends? I get the impression the smartphone makers are currently seeking a common 4.something inch screen size, but haven't settled on one yet, in part because resolution can vary as well.

Google's reports don't tell us anything about screen size, but we could probably start collecting that ourselves since I think they added an API to get physical screen dimensions a few releases ago. Just going by models we've got the Galaxy S2, S3, and Note as our top three, each a bit under 10% of our active users, so right there you've got a pretty significant gradient (and a difficult one to program around - optimal controls on an S2 are going to feel needlessly big on an S3 and optimal controls on an S3 are going to feel needlessly small on an S2)

character said:
In general, I think Apple would like to close down the Mac business if it could transition most Mac users to an iOS-only existence.

Oh I'm sure they're working on that internally even now - more and more common APIs and I can't imagine they don't have an ARM version of OS X humming along somewhere. (it'll be a funny progression of CPU instruction set architectures - CISC to RISC for performance, RISC back to CISC because the switch to microcode took away the performance advantage and Intel had much better-engineered chips, CISC to RISC again because now it offers battery life and cost advantages even though it's slower than X86).

character said:
Anyways, iPhone 5 ordered. Happy to help test anything.

Ordered here as well, they really ought to give developers some way to buy them ahead of schedule since we actually need the darn things for testing.

scykei said:
Wow. I'm glad to see you this confident! Makes me so proud of my Mike.

Thanks! Type design's not our doing, though, we're just rather pleased with how it came out.

character · Sep 15, 2012

Oh I'm sure they're working on that internally even now - more and more common APIs and I can't imagine they don't have an ARM version of OS X humming along somewhere.

iOS could switch to Intel at some point: http://www.pcworld.com/article/262249/i ... chips.html

I can see a future where developing for Apple products is like it was/is for some game consoles: developers have to purchase a special workstation from Apple. Everything else Apple produces will be iOS devices for consumers.

Ordered here as well [...]

I know that; just trying to be helpful.

mikelove · Sep 15, 2012

character said:
iOS could switch to Intel at some point: http://www.pcworld.com/article/262249/i ... chips.html

More likely they'll just keep improving ARM:

http://www.anandtech.com/show/6292/iphone-5-a6-not-a15-custom-core

They bought those chip guys a few years ago and it seems we're now going to really start to see the benefits from that. (this article actually has me rather excited about the OCR possibilities - a dramatically faster FPU facilitates some lovely stuff with real-time computer vision that we haven't been able to do before for performance reasons; may almost get us to the point where we can do real-time SWT)

character · Sep 16, 2012

mikelove said:
More likely they'll just keep improving ARM [...]

Probably, but I hesitate to count Intel out.

Hope the A6 allows better OCR; would be great if that was closer to 'just works'.

People have speculated the iPod Touch's internals (though not the screen) will be used for the "iPad Mini", so that would simplify matters a bit.

mikelove · Sep 16, 2012

character said:
Probably, but I hesitate to count Intel out.

I do too, but Intel is running into compatibility issues at this point - they have to find a way to offer a significant enough performance advantage that even ARM-based apps will run well in emulation, and for all of their chip design prowess and their half-generation-or-so lead in process technology, they may not be able to wring enough extra performance out of x86 to do that.

character said:
Hope the A6 allows better OCR; would be great if that was closer to 'just works'.

Some of that's made impossible by the very nature of OCR, but we're hoping we'll have enough free cycles for the sort of advanced motion tracking and text detection that would allow us to totally eliminate "jitter" and deliver something a bit more like what Word Lens was supposed to be.

character said:
People have speculated the iPod Touch's internals (though not the screen) will be used for the "iPad Mini", so that would simplify matters a bit.

It might, but since neither uses an A6, a potential OCR performance boost would only apply to iPhones.

iPhone 5 + new iPod Touch

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