guo 過

daniu

榜眼
Hi!

I have a question concerning the character above ...

My chinese teacher insisted today that the horizontal stroke inside the upper box is from right to the vertical stroke and not as in some ttf fonts from the left side to the vertical stroke. I hope you get what I mean ... I am talking about this character. In zhongwen.com it is also the way my teacher says but in PD 2 (stroke order) it is not ...

The point is that for the PD version 1 less stroke is needed ...

so?

best regards
Daniel
 

chao-ren

进士
http://www.yellowbridge.com/chinese/character-stroke-order.php?searchChinese=1&zi=過

Originally I believe the horizontal stroke in question is from left to right.
The only time Chinese character strokes are written from right to left is for the pie
All strokes must follow the prescribed 8 stroke types. i.e. 豎,橫,折,撇,捺,勾, 提, 點。
sorry I am writing 繁體字。。in line with your inquiry ..but shouldn't be a problem for you to switch to 簡體。。。
So ask your Chinese teacher why the horizontal stroke does not follow modern established rules?
 

daniu

榜眼
Hi!

Thanks for the answer!

I think you misunderstood my point ...

Of course that stroke in question cannot be written from right to left, The point is that in some fonts, the stroke is on the left side of the vertical stroke, in others and the right side. If it is on the left side, the vertical and the horizontal are one stroke, if it is on the right side, the horizontal must be drawn first (from left to right) followed by a vertical stroke starting from the same point. At least that is my understanding so far ...

Actually the point is the difference between the version in PD2 and the link you posted ... in PD2 that character has only 12 strokes - in your link 13 and the way it is described at yellowbridge is the way my chinese teacher says it should be ...

And ... sorry - but I never really studied the different stroke types ... so - no matter you use jian ti zi or fan ti zi ... I just do not know about that ...
BTW: should I? Or is that just for calligraphy? Is there a good book or pointer (link) about that?

regards
Daniel
 

chao-ren

进士
All Chinese characters must be made up of a combination of these 8 stroke types:
撇,横,竖,点,折,捺,提,勾。

This has nothing to do with Chinese calligraphy or special writing styles (e.g. 草文)
It is part of what is known as “the laws of Chinese Characters (汉字规律)”
- rules which described how Chinese characters are formed or drawn
ISBN7-107-19394-5
[主编 : 周建】

When the stroke is :
........on the left side, the vertical and the horizontal are one stroke,
This is simply drawing a 折 stroke。(1 stroke) Total = 12

....on the right side, the horizontal must be drawn first (from left to right) followed by a vertical stroke starting from the same point.
This is the drawing of a 横 followed by a 竖。 (2 strokes) Total =13

So which is correct? In my opinion the use of 横 and then a 竖 is closer to the way most people write this character
in Hong Kong. Before fonts came along the stroke in question was written like a capital ‘T’. i.e. 2 strokes. The horizontal
stroke actually crosses to touch nearly both sides of the "chimney".

Now that different styles of fonts for Chinese characters are increasingly common, it is not surprising that certain font types replace the "横 and 竖" with only a "折"。 Notice that when the stroke(s) in question is a right touching ‘L’, the rules are still obeyed and the number of strokes must be 13 as a result and not 12. When it is left touching, a 折 suffices, therefore 12. The key point here is that rules must always be obeyed and number of strokes (using only valid stroke combinations) when writing out the character correctly show each character. Therefore PD2 is also correct!
 

daniu

榜眼
Hi!

I got what you mean.

Basically that means there are 2 ways of writing this character nowadays. The point is just that PD only shows one of them and ... worse: it is the other one than my (Taiwanese) chinese teacher considers the only right way ...
Are there other cases like that?

And one other thing: so far I thought that the stroke number is crucially important since it is the thing that enables you to check the word in a printed dictionary. How can it be that these (quite common) character now should have different numbers of strokes? What is the ultimate source of declaring how to write a character (in fan ti zi) correctly nowadays?

So: once again: do I really need to study the 8 different types of strokes? I got about 5 different chinese learning (starter) books at home but none of them considers it important to learn this first. So: any good book about that? Or: are these books right in ommiting this learning step because it is nice for sinologists but not necessary for people wanting to learn to communicate?

Or do I simply need to visit the chaligraphy class for a while that I am paying with my chinese school fees anyway? :)

best regards
Daniel
 

chao-ren

进士
Basically that means there are 2 ways of writing this character。。。..
Are there other cases like that?
You sound like you haven't been studying Chinese for very long Mr daniu 孔. I wouldn't worry too much about these small ‘exceptions'. Just learn the 'rules' when they are explained to you or given to you by your teacher. If there are no rules then it's jut tough sausage. When learning Chinese I remember that learning to remember tones or tonal changes was the hardest -no rules-. Even now after so many years, I still don't speak like a native speaker.
Take a look at the different version of these two characters : 真 and 直 or 值。 I used to be so annoyed when some fonts don't display these characters like the way you see them here or the way you are supposed to write them on paper. It is so confusing when you try to search for them in a typical paper dictionary. The respective radicals are also not as 'obvious' as your character 過。
And one other thing: so far I thought that the stroke number is crucially important since it is the thing that enables you to check the word in a printed dictionary. How can it be that these (quite common) character now should have different numbers of strokes? What is the ultimate source of declaring how to write a character (in fan ti zi) correctly nowadays?
Can you believe teachers in Hong Kong regularly have complete overhaul of how certain characters should be written. Almost like the 文化大革命 except at a much smaller scale. Young mothers are frequently shocked when their children come home from school and tell them that the 'homework' was not done properly! Most mothers are not sure now how to teach their children how to write certain characters!!! The board of Education might not think your way is the correct way. :D
So the ultimate source of how to write a character? Well it depends upon the stage of your life. Are you in primary school, kindergarten, married? etc... Apart from no. of strokes, which most people get it wrong from time to time, there is also the pinyin or radical approach. To make matters worse, when you start learning simplified characters, the radicals for certain characters also change or disappear!
So: once again: do I really need to study the 8 different types of strokes? I got about 5 different chinese learning (starter) books at home but none of them considers it important to learn this first. So: any good book about that? Or: are these books right in ommiting this learning step because it is nice for sinologists but not necessary for people wanting to learn to communicate?Or do I simply need to visit the chaligraphy class for a while that I am paying with my chinese school fees anyway?
I went for many years without knowing much about the background of Chinese characters (etymology ) or the rules that I've presented here until one day I had to move into China and had to start learning simplified characters. Like you I started by learning 繁體字 and my basic complaint to my teachers in China was that simplified characters were randomly generated, without any order. After all they looked so ridiculous!! One day one lovely teacher put a stop to my complaining. She said: "look, sit next to me (that was the easy part), and we will go through each ridiculous simplified character that you can't stand". Well then she explained what a 橫 was, then all the other 7 formal parts. I was hooked or 勾ed as we say by her highness。。。 :lol:
 

daniu

榜眼
Hi!

Well - I am learning Chinese for quite some time (it's about 7 years already) - just not so intensive and never full time :) and I never had too much urgency to learn ...

Probably I need to get rid of my German thinking that everything needs to have a rule and needs to be done "the right way" :)

But is it that you are saying that in jian ti zi the stroke types are more important than in fan ti zi? And how on earth did you manage to get more sense into jian ti zi? I think you really need to be in China to achieve that ... I only was in Taiwan and the knowledge that simplified chinese is way worse than traditional and does not make sense is quite deep (even maybe most things I would not realize myself but have just been told that it is like that ...). I am not sure if I can ever forget that :)
Right now I try to learn both - more or less. At least reading - writing not really ...

I mean ... comparing this: 愛 and this: 爱 could fill books :) How on earth could they do this?

best regards
Daniel
 

feng

榜眼
Daniu, reading your original post, I guess you mean the difference in my attached image? The one on the left is the official PRC traditional form; the one on the right in the official Taiwan form. I can find evidence of only one calligrapher in history, and zero dictionaries, writing it the PRC way. The Taiwan way was the most common. As with other common characters, there were a variety of ways to write this, including the capital T mentioned above. My preferred way is with a little 人 in the top box instead of the half a 口, though that has not been common since pre-Tang times, unfortunately.

Taiwan and the PRC both have official forms, though one or both of them sometimes vary from the historical norm (much more commonly for the PRC).

You mentioned calligraphy class. Keep in mind that is an art class, not a standardized teaching class, therefore variation is common.

You are right to cue in on these differences, though. They are and have always been important. The PRC made some odd choices for their simplifications. Be aware that Chinese speakers from anywhere are not "native speakers" of characters, as that is a writing system, and they will often lead you astray with unfounded dogma from their teacher. There are instances where a 橫 is written from right to left in 草書 (for example the 求 group, among a few other instances) and other violations of the supposed universal laws of Chinese characters which are universal only for modern standard kaishu. There are other exceptions in other styles (i.e. seal script).

Stroke order sometimes differs between Taiwan and China, and between different teachers of calligraphy.
 

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